Why are deists so annoying?

[DeistPaladin]

But that was not the point. To me the similarity is striking. Just a god who created and stopped intervening at some point. So I wonder how common this view of god was in history.
Did it arise anywhere else?

I tried finding information on deistic ideas forming in other cultures, but couldn't find any. So I suspect the deistic god is in a way biblegod stripped down all the way to next to nothing. I'm no expert though.

Not so much stopped intervening as we simply don't know and all evidence to the contrary.

Although, when I studied just how close we've come to mutual annihilation and not gone over that edge (the last close call was in 1995), it was almost enough to make me think there might be some sort of friendly god watching over us. Almost.

The cartoon Futurerama did explore the issue some when Bender meets with God after unsuccessfully playing the role himself. (Look, philosophy is where you find it!) Too much intervention and your creation becomes dependent. Too little and your creation may die. The right amount, as "God" told Bender, is where they don't know you've done anything at all. I'm not saying I believe this. The writers of Futurerama are atheists, AFAIK. But it was thought provoking.

As for deism, I'm sure deist-ish ideas have been around as long as religion has. Galileo was not exactly a deist per se but he evoked the philosophy when he said (paraphrased as I don't have the quote in front of me), "I refuse to believe in a God that endowed me with sense and reason only to forbid me to their use."

Some atheists in my local community once remarked that deism had a more Far Eastern take on God, less the fire-and-brimstone and more the journey and progress toward enlightenment.

In the west, Deism is traced back to the 16th century. Early deists were essentially watered-down Christians who drew their inspiration from the earlier discoveries in science. They didn't deny the divinity of Christ (or, I think, were smart enough not to do so publicly since Christians still burned heretics at the stake) but this was the beginning of looking to the natural world rather than scripture and tradition for spiritual inspiration. Christianity made its break with rejecting Christianity and the Bible with Thomas Paine (not coincidentally, I maintain, at the same time the Christian terror on intellectuals was broken).

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That's basically deism. Most boring conversation piece in the history of the world.

Some atheists who are fans of my videos ask me why I never make any on the subject of deism, as contrasted with atheism. This is one of *many* reasons.

That said, we do get to identify with great thinkers of history who had fantastic hair!

[Violet]

This is what makes it all the more confusing for me.

Pretty much every Deist I've spoken to/met, is pretty damn intelligent. Probably more so than myself at least on the whole. Like you say, they're very much aware they can't provide a convincing argument. But this is why I think they're being intellectually dishonest with themselves. Why is it they can convince themselves there's some supernatural entity, but no one else? They choose to make the leap of faith, in spite of them knowing it's unnecessary. I will never understand that.

Fall down the chasm, or build a bridge across it.

Or blow up some balloons

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I will agree deism has no dogmas (even their belief in god can be questioned, that's why some deists become atheists later), and many of these deists seem fairly intelligent people, they are just afraid to let go the other hand.

More like... afraid of what 'the other hand' is trying to do to them, and shooting at it with boom boom sticks.

And they get annoyed when I tell them deism is an unfalsifiable claim (it is).

All claims ultimately are.

I think the reason deists, from my experience similarly to theists, get so easily offended and hurt with critics is because they know deism, just like theism, is full of flaws and they are afraid to see their position refuted successfully. As an atheist, I gladly accept all critics, I usually say that to give atheism a better stance we ought to refute all critics, refusing them only shows fear.

Believe what you will... but nobody likes a critic.

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Although, you know, instead of the banana... oh sorry, I was about to go too far again.

Get out.

My wife tells me I do that.

She's right.

It must be especially jarring when juxtaposed with my otherwise gentlemanly demeanor.

Yeah... just carry a banana around in this neighborhood. See what happens.

[Ryantology]

My experience with deists is that they decide to be a little more fanciful in their speculation of a subject which is purely speculatory, and I've never seen one get insistent about it.

I have no use for deism, but no real aversion to deists. The only differences between my viewpoint and theirs tend to be, as DP noted, abstract in the extreme.

[Napoléon]

This is why I could serve as the director of the Louisville Atheists and Freethinkers for a few years without any issues either in my purpose in running the organization or with its members.

For a time, about a two week period in my life, I had something of what could be called a crisis of non-faith. No, really, I'm serious. I actually wondered what was wrong with me, why I couldn't be a "normal" atheist like all of my friends and family. Why couldn't I, as many would say, "take the final step" or figure out why God was so firmly a part of my philosophical outlook. I came to accept it as just my instinctive nature.

Somewhere around here I posted a thread that goes into my take on deism in greater detail. I'll try to dig it up and post a link.

Like I said before, deists often can't explain properly why they actually have this belief in god. Intellectual dishonesty. At the risk of being a rude cunt, I really think you're kidding yourself when you say you're simply an atheist who doesn't have the lack of belief. I know you said yourself that this was a tongue in cheek description, but you seem to think it's a correct one. I disagree. You're not an atheist in any sense of the word as far as I'm concerned. You might be a secularist, an anti-theist. But I honestly think any belief like the one you have puts you way closer to being a theist than being an atheist.

Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired. God gene anyone? Or perhaps my instincts are on to something. Who knows?

Sounds far more like a theist would say this than an atheist.

Lifestyle wise, ofcourse you probably live like the 'stereotypical atheist', if that's even a thing. I understand your point about everyone being different. But when it comes to what you believe? You are absolutely closer to a theist than an atheist. Saying otherwise is simply lying to yourself. Dawkins was bang on. Deism is watered down theism. It's believing in god without all the doctrinal mumbo jumbo attached. That's 'better' in a great many ways, but still, you believe in something else right? How does that make you closer to atheism. I really don't understand the logic there.

[DeistPaladin]

Yeah... just carry a banana around in this neighborhood. See what happens.

Bananas are good!

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I really don't understand the logic there.

I've explained it as well as I can. If you found that insufficient, that's unfortunate.

I will say your charge of intellectual dishonesty is unfounded unless you can elaborate any further. I've double checked the definition of intellectual honesty and I seem to check all the boxes.

[Napoléon]

I've explained it as well as I can. If you found that insufficient, that's unfortunate.

Bit of a weak response. I was hoping for more than that. Although I understand your not wanting to explain further.

[DeistPaladin]

Bit of a weak response. I was hoping for more than that. Although I understand your not wanting to explain further.

It's not a matter of my desires as a matter of I don't know what more you want.

I did edit my post to include that I double checked the definition of intellectual honesty and am not sure why you've decided I've failed to meet any of the criteria.

[Napoléon]

I will say your charge of intellectual dishonesty is unfounded unless you can elaborate any further. I've double checked the definition of intellectual honesty and I seem to check all the boxes.

You're intellectually dishonest because you know yourself your beliefs are unfounded. (I'd like to stress this is just what I think, I know deists have gotten pissy with me before when I've used the intellectual dishonesty route, if you feel perfectly justified in your belief, then you're not being intellectually dishonest, I just don't understand what justifies that belief).

I guess it's not intellectual dishonesty in the typical 'fallacy' sense. But, I guess it's more you believing in something even though you have no rational reason to.

You said yourself "Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired. God gene anyone? Or perhaps my instincts are on to something. Who knows?" To me, it just seems like you want to believe. Rather than you have actual reason to.

Maybe my view has been tarnished by the interactions I've had in the past with deists, but, it usually does boil down to "wanting to believe". And this is why I don't think you're being honest with yourself. Can you honestly say it's perfectly rational to have a belief in god/some other first cause? If it's not rational, and from pretty much every interaction I've had the deist will admit that, then how do you justify your belief? This is always where the explanations break down. This is where I think the intellectual dishonesty lies. The only difference IMHO between you and me is that I can admit there is no rational reason to believe in god, and I'm fine with that, and I don't believe. Deists don't seem to want to let go of that optimism/hope that there is something more, even though it's completely unfounded.

[DeistPaladin]

Maybe my view has been tarnished by the interactions I've had in the past with deists...

Perhaps it has.

[Napoléon]

Perhaps it has.

I still get the sense you're avoiding my questions because you can't rationally justify your own beliefs. Just kinda proving me right to be honest.