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Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
#21
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
Gnostic atheist here. I assert, without doubt, that gods are not only non-existent, but also not possible, and for a simple reason.

The term "god" is utterly undefined. Ask one believer what "god" means to them in clear, concise terms, and either they won't be able to do it, or their definition will be bullshit. Because of that, I tried to define "god" for myself. I thought "What being would be great enough that I would worship it willingly?". The conclusion was obvious: a perfect being.
The next problem was defining "perfect being". I realized that three properties were fundamental in a perfect being: omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence. Toss paradoxes associated with each of those into the mix, along with paradoxes associated with the different combinations and the paradoxes associated with those properties and reality, and you've got yourself a non-existent being.
And no, I did not "define god into non-existence". I defined the one being that would make me bow down and worship it. I defined perfection (from my perspective). Surprise surprise, perfection is an impossible concept. However, if that being did exist, it would be perfect. I await now for you to point out the problems you see with my post.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?

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#22
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
(August 24, 2014 at 11:54 pm)answer-is-42 Wrote:
(August 17, 2014 at 2:05 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Not many gnostic atheist members, I don't think this thread is going to be very successful.

That may be true, though there are a lot of folks that ACT like gnostics until they are pushed on the issue. I like to push. thanks

Of course, without a proof of the non-existence of any gods, I am in principle an agnostic atheist.

Given the utter lack of evidence for any gods, and the massive evidence against, I am in practice a gnostic atheist.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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#23
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
(September 14, 2014 at 8:10 am)Chas Wrote: Of course, without a proof of the non-existence of any gods, I am in principle an agnostic atheist.

Given the utter lack of evidence for any gods, and the massive evidence against, I am in practice a gnostic atheist.

Why wouldn't the "massive evidence against" make you a gnostic atheist in principle as well?
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#24
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
My fundamental argument is against gnostism in general. A lack of proof is NOT a proof of lack so to speak. Until recently we had no ability to visualize a virus and the very concept seems almost implausible (a microscopic creature without cells that lives as an obligate parasite and hijacks the host at a cellular level to replicate itself?) yet they certainly exist. Try proving it to someone in the 10th century. They would be fairly "gnostic" that the concept of a virus does not exist (of course i'm not sure if they had any concept of cells either). Does the lack of knowledge at that moment in history mean anything?
I firmly believe it is very difficult to claim absolute knowledge on anything, and doing so does require proof. When you claim knowledge of truth, the search for that truth ends (you already found it) and that is wrong if the proof does not rise to the level required.
That is not to say that we must be paralyzed waiting for certainty. We live in a world of incomplete information and must make the best decisions with the information we have. Improbable can be "practically" impossible, but is not "principally" (to quote a previous poster) impossible. That distinction has theoretical differences if not material ones. But stopping a search for truth is a true consequence and should be considered.
Again, I make no claim that any divine explanation is true, and truly doubt any is. I agree no evidence can support these claims and there are plenty of alternative theories that can explain why religion and the god concept exist. BUT I do keep myself open enough to reconsider if true proof presents itself. If you gnostic on this then NO PROOF can exist that would sway you - else you were never gnostic to begin with. This is often a problem on the other side of the aisle, but we should be honest enough to confront it among atheists as well, if only to be intellectually honest.

Regarding defining terms, well that is a rub in all arguements. I defined god as I see fit. You may not agree with me. If your belief is a "perfect entitiy" then what defines perfect. I see no reason why omnipotence, omnipresense, or benevolence have anything to do with 'perfection" or necessry for a diety. Infact, I'm not sure why needing to worship a deity is a requirement for being a deity. IF the god of the Bible existed, I would personally not worship it/him/her because of my views on morality are inconflict with "his" but that would change whether it was a deity (by definition it is).
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#25
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
answer-is-42, you are conflating gnosticism with closed-mindedness. They are not one and the same.
I am a gnostic atheist, but that doesn't mean I can't be convinced I'm wrong. For example, I am gnostic about the fact that I'm human, but, if a DNA test proved otherwise, I'd have no choice but to accept it. Being certain about something doesn't mean you can't be convinced you're wrong. It just means you're certain. Technically, gnosticism is the claim that you have absolute knowledge about something, so, in that case, you'd just be wrong. If you can prove that logical paradoxes aren't logical paradoxes, feel free to do so.

As for defining "perfection", there's no reason why you would need to agree with my requirements for perfection. Perfection is inherently different in each individual's view.
I want to correct something I said, nevertheless. I might consider an omnipotent and omniscient being a god, but I would never willingly bow to it if it wasn't benevolent as well.

Finally, if we were to accept others' definitions of "god", why not simply call ourselves gnostic theists and be done with it? Pantheists worship the Universe, and it definitely exists. Why won't you accept their definition (assuming you won't), but would accept the god of the Bible as a god if he were proven to exist?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?

[Image: LB_Header_Idea_A.jpg]
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#26
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
(September 18, 2014 at 12:01 am)answer-is-42 Wrote: IF the god of the Bible existed, I would personally not worship it/him/her because of my views on morality are inconflict with "his" but that would change whether it was a deity (by definition it is).
Actually, it would modify that statement - the word deity has no meaning whatsoever apart from a faith tradition (or one's acceptance of the claims made -by- that faith tradition). The christian god is a deity not by virtue of it's existence or attributes (try to claim otherwise and see where that takes you) but by it's definition -as such- by the christian faith. A deity can be absolutely anything, it isn't required to have anything in common with the christian god (and a quick look at the field of the "divine" ought to have made this much plain). The Hut-tut tribe of whereverthefuck might consider the christian god a ghost, not a god (because Big J might not do anything important to them, he might have no relevance whatsoever).

So, by definition, the christian god is what again, and who's definition is that? Personally, my gnosticism doesn't rest on accepting or denying any particular definition of god (let the faithful hash that out amongst themselves), but rather, demonstrating that any given conception of it is incoherent or meaningless, misattribution or baseless anthropomorphism.

"I worship this toaster because I believe that it created the world and everything in it and is, therefore, a god"
-No it didn't, and therefore, by your own definition - it is not.

"I worship this toaster because I believe that it has thus and thus attributes, making it a god"
-No, it doesn't, you have those attributes. You are worshipping a projection of yourself - not a god, or even the toaster.

To use the poster aboves example:
"I define god to be -the universe-"
-and I define god to be -a toaster-.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#27
RE: Hey Gnostic Atheist - prove your point
(August 17, 2014 at 1:55 pm)answer-is-42 Wrote: I am not a theist in any way, but for those who do push the view that there IS no god then some arguement should be forth coming.
I am convinced that there is no god. I cannot prove that an undetectable and cleverly-hidden god doesn't exist, but we can apply that to pretty much anything we can dream up. The explanations for god's existence that I held when I was a theist, and that I see theists use here and elsewhere, are unconvincing to me.

That said, it's not an issue for me. I am concerned with the ways that religion and religious belief can be harmful to people or how they can impede progress. But I don't need for everyone to be an atheist for those problems to be resolved. I just need for them to be reasonable. If being religious and being reasonable were impossible, then I'd be concerned about proving that there is no god.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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