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Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
#31
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
(August 19, 2014 at 10:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: There's really no reason to assume that aliens would have "philosophy" of any kind, nor that they would be technologically advanced. Not even if they showed up here. We're imagining a very specific sort of alien when we imagine a machine builder and a thinker. It's a very "human" sort of alien. That's a great mirror for considering aspects of ourselves - but it may also explain why we so often imagine that sort of alien not to "come in peace", why we imagine human misery and impotence would follow it's arrival. After all, that's what happens when human beings show up with "better boats" in our history.

I assumed those aliens of interest to this discussion would be aliens that were technological, or at least bordering on the technological, so as to present the dilemma of another peer tenant in the same universe that manifestly fall outside of any conceivable scope of genesis, aliens that can't be written off as animals, but clearly equal or superior to us in all aspects that makes us think we are superior to animals.

A machine builder is a reasonable assumption, since given the plausible spectrum of technological capabilities and our very primitive position on it, it seems very much more likely for them to initiate contact than it is for us, with our currently poor technological powers, to do so, and that requires on their part not only machines, but vastly superior machines than ours.
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#32
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
I don't think that they would need machines to be our peers.

Similarly, we assume that they would need technology vastly superior to ours only because we approach the subject with our biology in mind (the reason our technology would have to be impressive to get there is directly tied to how fragile our biology is in the environment of the vacuum, our longevity, etc). Exobiology wouldn't necesarrily find itself under those same constraints - and so even if they -were- machine builders who flew here, that machine wouldn't have to be very impressive to us. Perhaps they just pointed a cannon at random and held onto the shell. I think that we'd still be impressed...lol, I know I would....but not at their method of transportation, more accurately, not at the machine they leveraged.

We may not be all that primitive with regards to technology at all. Hell, for all we know, we're the best machine builders in the cosmos - but none of that would stop exobiology from finding "some other way"" - in principle.
(obviously I'm biased, the most impressive machine on our own spaceships, to me, is the pilot)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#33
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
It seems extraordinarily improbable to me that having only started on our evolutionary tree 5-6 billion years after much of the universe attained a state capable of forming earth like planets and begin separate lines of biological evolution, we could be the first to reach technological civilization.

We've had technology for a few tens thousand years in a universe a dozen billion years old, I think the median level of development amongst currently existent technological civilizations in the universe would be several billion years ahead of us, and possess technological powers to effect changes to the observable universe which we would be totally incapable of discerning from cosmological processes. To most technological civilization that had reached technological thresholds, Our. technology, a few thousand years out of the gate, would be barely discernible from no technology at all, so early it is in the billions year long course of technological development likely already experience by many others.
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#34
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
We'd either try to kill them or eat them.
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#35
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
(August 19, 2014 at 12:20 pm)Chuck Wrote: It seems extraordinarily improbable to me that having only started on our evolutionary tree 5-6 billion years after much of the universe attained a state capable of forming earth like planets and begin separate lines of biological evolution, we could be the first to reach technological civilization.
Technology is just one strategy, and the majority of life on this planet doesn't utilize it. While we could concievably state that we're doing better than the majority of life on this planet - there are things which are doing even better than us. Some of those things, are precisely the sorts of things -with adaptations that would be amenable to long distance travel through space.

Quote: We've had technology for a few tens thousand years in a universe a dozen billion years old, I think the median level of development amongst currently existent technological civilizations in the universe would be several billion years ahead of us, and possess technological powers to effect changes to the observable universe which we would be totally incapable of discerning from cosmological processes.
You seem to be assuming that technology is some sort of terminus, or point towards which exobiology would be headed. Why? It didn't even "head" that way here, and if we're talking about spans of billions of years - we have a little ways to go yet before we can determine that technology even -works- here, on this rock.

Quote: To most technological civilization that had reached technological thresholds, Our. technology, a few thousand years out of the gate, would be barely discernible from no technology at all, so early it is in the billions year long course of technological development likely already experience by many others.
If we assume that some other type of life, on some other planet, that started before us (not that their life started before us...but specifically that life utilizing technology kicked off earlier and then survived...itself a tenous assumption.........) then yeah, sure, totally agree. I just don't see why we'd make so many assumptions that explicitly refer to ourselves as a species as though we were a benchmark for exobiology. The technologically advanced alien invader/explorer is just a mirror of ourselves. There's no shortage of wealth on this planet alone from which we might speculate about life on other planets, so I try to stay leery about "humanizing" some alien species.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
(August 18, 2014 at 11:50 am)bladevalant546 Wrote: What would you think the world's reaction be if we did discover other life? Also, would there be any reason for it to be covered up? (Bored at work, random ass thought)

I guess it depends on the circumstances. I personally don't think the discovery of life on Mars or Europa would be that philosophically important. I sure if Christianity and Islam can survive the sun being the center of the solar system and the earth being round, they could survive the discovery of extra-terrestrial life. They have to do so much brain twisting to be religious in the modern world, what's a little more?

On the other hand if intelligent extra-terrestrial life contacted earth I would shit my pants. That would mean so much more and open up the whole universe to us. Seems unlikely though.
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#37
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
(August 19, 2014 at 1:31 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:
(August 18, 2014 at 11:50 am)bladevalant546 Wrote: What would you think the world's reaction be if we did discover other life? Also, would there be any reason for it to be covered up? (Bored at work, random ass thought)

I guess it depends on the circumstances. I personally don't think the discovery of life on Mars or Europa would be that philosophically important. I sure if Christianity and Islam can survive the sun being the center of the solar system and the earth being round, they could survive the discovery of extra-terrestrial life. They have to do so much brain twisting to be religious in the modern world, what's a little more?

On the other hand if intelligent extra-terrestrial life contacted earth I would shit my pants. That would mean so much more and open up the whole universe to us. Seems unlikely though.



In my opinion the most likely scenario for contact by likely intelligent aliens would involve profound mystification and total incomprehension by us.

The scenario would be something along the lines of aliens 3 billion years more advanced then us doing whatever they do with universal gravitational constants, cosmological constants, and other what we conceive of as bedrock of the cosmos in much the same way that we might pour concrete to hold up a mailbox post. We would suddenly find all our understanding of the fundamental universe turned upside down, and some would see the hand of god.

In the meantime the hand of the aliens would pass on, the effects of its actions upon us, or even our existence, a matter of supreme disinterest to them. Aliens 3 billion years more advanced than we won't routinely dumb down their data packets to enlighten us.

There will be no two way meaningful,communication.
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#38
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
(August 19, 2014 at 1:49 pm)Chuck Wrote:
(August 19, 2014 at 1:31 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I guess it depends on the circumstances. I personally don't think the discovery of life on Mars or Europa would be that philosophically important. I sure if Christianity and Islam can survive the sun being the center of the solar system and the earth being round, they could survive the discovery of extra-terrestrial life. They have to do so much brain twisting to be religious in the modern world, what's a little more?

On the other hand if intelligent extra-terrestrial life contacted earth I would shit my pants. That would mean so much more and open up the whole universe to us. Seems unlikely though.



In my opinion the most likely scenario for contact by likely intelligent aliens would involve profound mystification and total incomprehension by us.

The scenario would be something along the lines of aliens 3 billion years more advanced then us doing whatever they do with universal gravitational constants, cosmological constants, and other what we conceive of as bedrock of the cosmos in much the same way that we might pour concrete to hold up a mailbox post. We would sudden find all our understanding of the fundamental universe turned upside down, and some would see the hand of god.

In the meantime the hand of the aliens would pass on, the effects of its actions upon us, or even our existence, a matter of supreme disinterest to them. Aliens 3 billion years more advanced than we won't routinely dumb down their data packets to enlighten us.

There will be no two way meaningful,communication.

Not between 3 billion years and us, but what about 100,000 years or 10,000 years. It's hard to say how far we are from any sort of travel to other planets or if such a thing is even possible. I personally think it is not possible and thus we will never be contacted by extra-terrestrials.
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#39
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
Oh IDK, if it's a tech species (along with other similarities implicit in that tech species) a "lower level" tech species would be likely to arouse their interest - if for no other reason that that they understand where it all can lead. Besides, we've "dumb-down" our data packets to educate "others". It's a behavior that has precedent among technologically proficient groups when they encounter the "less fortunate". A whole host of other, less palatable behaviors are also with precedent, of course.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#40
RE: Reaction to extra-terrestial life.
Well, I think because the universe has had so many billions of years longer than existence of earth to evolve intelligent life, the chance of us running to aliens that are only within 10,000 or 100,000 years of us would be slim. It would be like if you pick two complete random 9 digit numbers, each between 0 and 6 billion, and you so happen to pick two that only differ by 5 digits.

The odds are in tens of thousands to one against it. So are the chances that the first technological civilization we encounter being only 10,000 or 100,000 years more advanced than we are. I think a good case can be made that the average technological gap between any two civilizations is 2-3 billion years.

As to dumbing down, you only dumb down if there is something in the recipient you can relate to. The fact that you know how things might turn out for the recipient's descendants 3 billion years hence is pretty slim basis for relation. I means do we feel any particular kinship to bacteria? Which would be to us what we might be to the first alien we run into.
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