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Animals and Death
#1
Sad 
Animals and Death
This morning, I had to go to the vet and put my wonderful ten year old cat down. Turns out that after I noticed she'd been vomiting blood and brought her in, her kidneys had shut down and there was nothing they could do, but at least I got to say goodbye. I've been some time off from the Internet (mostly) to process. I also found some things that the vet said interesting.

They said that only humans think about and agonize over death, and that for my cat, all she knew was that she wasn't feeling good and that she was going to sleep- albeit she didn't know it would be forever. And yet, when the vet finally put her to sleep, she said, "Alright, it's time to go to heaven."

I asked my girlfriend about it and she believes (like many theists) that animals don't have "immaterial" souls but people do, but without giving any evidence for such. I had never explained to her exactly why I believed that there were no souls to begin with, but I brought in the example of Phineas Gage, who had his brain pierced by a flying rail spike and afterwards became more aggressive, to demonstrate the scientific point of view that the mind is a process of the brain. I also explained that, since dark energy is undetectable except through its effects upon its surroundings, if there were a soul, even if it was non physical, wouldn't it work in much the same way? If it never interacted with the physical world and had no effect, then the soul is not useful.

Anyway, I then said that I am fine with and can reason through death in a world bereft of cosmic reasoning and subject to chaos through the idea that at least a person's or animal's suffering ends, and hopefully they lived long and happy lives. I asked her what reasoning, even beauty (she has told me), she seems to find in death.

After all, why set the world up so that some animals have to kill each other for food, why make physical laws such that living things have to die, why give souls to people but not animals? Basically, I think that trying to inject reasoning where none can be found is impossible, as explanations will be arbitrary. Not that we can't explain why things DO die, as in the causes, but putting shoulds or oughts in there is extremely speculative.

My gf then proceeded to say that she thought that, just as we thought that the womb was the only world as a fetus (presuming it has thoughts), but it grew until it was ready to be born, so is the mortal world just a proving ground for people to learn to enter the next world, and not for animals, and that's that. Of course, that only opens the field to further questions. If there is an immortal paradise to look forward to, why not just make Earth a planet of eternal life where there doesn't have to be suffering or death? Why create animals at all if they exist just to be destroyed? Why develop human qualities through life and not instead skip the middleman so to speak and have humans and animals with fully formed souls? Why create at all if you're going to mess it up? For whose macabre amusement is the supposedly predetermined drama of the universe being played out?

The answers are simpler if the universe does not have a grand plan to it. Yeah, it doesn't give a shit whether we live or go extinct. Tough. But guess what? WE do give a shit, about ourselves, about the people (and animals) we love, and about the tiny planet orbiting a tiny star on the edge of the galaxy we're stuck in. And we have to develop to survive and make the world better. We have to die because that's the way it is and it sucks, but we can move past death and celebrate life, both past and future. And consequently, to paraphrase Han Solo, only we control our destiny, not some mystical energy field that's all a bunch of magic tricks and nonsense.

Of course, that doesn't stop me from feeling crappy about losing a family member today, nor does it stop me from maybe wishing that my cat did in fact go on to kitty heaven.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?

Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
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#2
RE: Animals and Death
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. To me also, animals form a part of my family, and it is devastating when they leave us. I like to think of them running free in a place where they are happy all the time, free from the horrors of this world. I know it's not true, but it's a comforting thought. And as long as I remember them, and try to concentrate on the happy memories, they do "live on" in that way.

I think the religious/spiritual idea of humans having souls and that they continue after death is all part of the idea that we are in some way special. Instead of viewing ourselves as just another animal that happens to have a special knack for certain things, we think we are some ultimate species and that every other animal is in some way below us. That's probably why (in religion at least) some/all animals don't also get souls, because that would elevate them to our status in some way.

Of course there is no evidence that souls exist at all, even in humans. I think they are a mixture of wishful thinking and an attempt to explain our self awareness.
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#3
RE: Animals and Death
Sorry for your loss SSkeptic. Ten years is about the half way point for kitties. If you like having a relationship with a different species I encourage you get another right away. It will never be the one you lost but it could very well be a whole other kind of wonderful.

Isn't it odd how people naturally anthropomorphize all kinds of things in regard to their pets. And yet a soul is just a step too far if you're a doctrine following believer. According to their lot, everything in the world is for or about humans. The rest looks nice and lots of it is useful to us, but every bit of it put there for a purpose by god-all-mighty. But god loves us best so we assume His purpose revolves around us of course. Christians just are not all that humble.
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#4
RE: Animals and Death
I've been told that all dogs go to heaven. As for cats, I think they get reincarnated. :-0
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#5
RE: Animals and Death
(August 27, 2014 at 10:18 am)ChadWooters Wrote: I've been told that all dogs go to heaven. As for cats, I think they get reincarnated. :-0
Reincarnated into what? The same species they belonged to or some different kind of animal?
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#6
RE: Animals and Death
I'm so sorry, SS

[Image: giphy.gif]
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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#7
RE: Animals and Death
There is not much I can say about souls since I don't believe such things exist - And I agree it doesn't make sense to attribute souls to humans and not to animals (by the way, humans are animals too).

I am sorry for your loss - I love cats. Luckily, you can cope with it and keep going, death is a part of life, and the end of it, there are not many things more natural than death. Cheers Smile
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#8
RE: Animals and Death
I'm so sorry about your cat. If there IS a heaven, I'd bet there are more pets there than people.
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#9
RE: Animals and Death
For future reference, we found out in time our cat had kidney problems and the vet had us try Science Diet K/D canned cat food. It was pricey, but the cat loved it and we feel it let the cat live several more years of quality time.

He eventually (he was a stray, but we had him for 18 years) passed we think from a heart attack. We had him cremated and I put his ashes under the lilac where he liked to hide.
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#10
RE: Animals and Death
Only pet I've ever had was a golden retriever that lived to be 16 and lived on 3 continents with us. Was really tough when he died, especially as he was the only constant companion I had while moving around so much as a child. Sorry about your loss SSkeptic, just remember all the good times!
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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