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Supposed Theist Morality
August 30, 2014 at 11:46 am
First a question:
Is there any of the major christian sects, a situation in which, if one is a believer that they can be sent to hell? I've done a lot of web searches and can find no sin they could commit that would send them to hell. Even suicide for some of these sects doesn't send them to hell.
If the answer is yes, that there are sins they could commit to be sent to hell, what follows is irrelevant.
If the answer is no, that as long as they are a believer, they will go to heaven, please read on.
I tired of theists asking, "If you don't believe in god, where do you get your morals from". But if all that is required to get to heaven is the "belief" in god, no matter what horrific things you might do, because believers are forgiven, What keeps believers from raping and murdering? What is the "fear of god" that I always hear theists talk about. Why fear when all is forgiven?
Striper
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
August 30, 2014 at 12:29 pm
It's hard to take someone seriously when they accuse you of having no morals, while holding a book that encourages slavery, genocide, and killing children for the crimes of their parents and ancestors, as well as condoning rape as long as the girl is not married or betrothed, and equating thoughts with actions.
Even some of the best things lose their value when you think about it. Love your neighbor and enemy as yourself? But also hate yourself and your family?
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
August 30, 2014 at 12:32 pm
The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Ghost (somewhere in Matthew, I think). Jesus himself says that this particular brand of blasphemy can never, EVER be forgiven. Elsewhere is mentioned that - as long as you are properly repentant - sins will be forgiven and you'll get to heaven.
This is one of the many things that makes Christian theism incomprehensible to me. The idea that someone, anyone, can have a single instance of blaspheming the Spook and be subjected to an eternity of torment irrespective of any other good they've done. Ludicrous.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
August 30, 2014 at 12:41 pm
Welcome to the forum, Striper. There's an introductions forum if you'd like to use it.
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 12:31 pm
(August 30, 2014 at 11:46 am)Striper Wrote: Is there any of the major christian sects, a situation in which, if one is a believer that they can be sent to hell? I've done a lot of web searches and can find no sin they could commit that would send them to hell. Even suicide for some of these sects doesn't send them to hell.
When someone becomes a Christian God knows every sin he has committed and every sin he will commit in the future. All of those sins are forgiven at the time of salvation.
Quote:I tired of theists asking, "If you don't believe in god, where do you get your morals from".
Not all theists understand what the Bible teaches. There is a morality that God gives to all, even those who don't believe in God.
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
(Romans 2:14-16 ESV)
This Godgiven morality can be overwritten by the teaching a child receives as he grows up but everyone possesses an innate sense of right and wrong. Those who have never heard of the Bible will be judged by how well they have lived up to what they do know.
Quote:But if all that is required to get to heaven is the "belief" in god, no matter what horrific things you might do, because believers are forgiven, What keeps believers from raping and murdering?
Merely believing that God exists isn't enough for salvation. The belief that brings forgiveness consists of acknowledging your sinfulness and being willing to turn from your sins and believe that Christ died to atone from them. The person who does this is reborn with a spiritual nature that wants to obey God. He still have his old sinful nature so he can still sin but he can't simply live a life of sin the way he could have before he was saved.
Quote:What is the "fear of god" that I always hear theists talk about. Why fear when all is forgiven?
The Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If someone begins to fear God because he realizes that he is a sinner this fear should lead him to find out how he can be forgiven.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20 ESV
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 12:40 pm
(This post was last modified: September 8, 2014 at 12:41 pm by LastPoet.)
(August 30, 2014 at 11:46 am)Striper Wrote: I tired of theists asking, "If you don't believe in god, where do you get your morals from".
I would tell them that I'm really scared of people that only derive their morals from a fictional being. That I am really scared that to them, the only thing holding them back is the fear of a fantasy sky-daddy sendind them to a fictional place called hell.
That is the real fucked-up situation.
ETA: Oh, and
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 12:40 pm
(August 30, 2014 at 12:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The idea that someone, anyone, can have a single instance of blaspheming the Spook and be subjected to an eternity of torment irrespective of any other good they've done. Ludicrous.
Boru GODAMMIT! Take that back! 
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 12:48 pm
Allowing a criminal to go free simply because they're brown nosing up to the warden, and punishing an innocent man in their place, are both reprehensible.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 12:56 pm
(This post was last modified: September 8, 2014 at 12:59 pm by Exian.)
I thought this was an interesting point made by robvalue on this matter from his thread "The Bible...why take it seriously?" (Sorry, I don't know how to quote from a different thread)
"What christians actually do with the bible now is they act on the parts they think are good, and they ignore (or try to argue away) the bits they don't think are good. So what they are really doing, is just doing what they think is good anyway, and using the bible as evidence that they are right. This shows that they do indeed have their own morals, and don't need a book to tell them what they are."
Oh also Welcome!! *emoticons depicting a pile of cookies and what not*
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
For context, this is the previous verse:
"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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RE: Supposed Theist Morality
September 8, 2014 at 1:01 pm
(This post was last modified: September 8, 2014 at 1:02 pm by StealthySkeptic.)
Yeah, I don't think that it's actually possible to quote from another thread the way you can within a thread. That'd be awesome though. And your point is awesome too, Exian.
(September 8, 2014 at 12:40 pm)ShaMan Wrote: (August 30, 2014 at 12:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The idea that someone, anyone, can have a single instance of blaspheming the Spook and be subjected to an eternity of torment irrespective of any other good they've done. Ludicrous.
Boru GODAMMIT! Take that back!
Uh oh, you just used the Lord's name in vain! To hell with you, sinner!!!!
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
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