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Faith and Works
#1
Faith and Works
After hanging out at my parent's house yesterday and talking to my father, it re-occurred to me how unique Christians believe their faith is in comparison to other religions (even Catholics--my folks are evangelicals) because they genuinely think those are works-based systems of salvation whereas Protestantism proclaims heaven's gate open to anyone who simply "believes."

Except that there is nothing simple about it. I could easily conceive of myself going about all the rituals and traditions (the "religion part") as "acts" of faith but ACTUALLY believing all that biblical nonsense (the "relationship part")? Now THAT seems like hard work. At most I can only picture myself as miserably and hypocritically pretending to be sincere while deep down constantly reminding myself how silly and petty and UNTRUE the whole Gospel story reads and feels.

Also, what's this "faith is a 'free' or 'deliberate' choice" thing? I don't get that bit at all either.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#2
RE: Faith and Works
That's the problem with belief, isn't it? By definition it's irrational. Of course, some people are smart enough to question their childhood indoctrination, but most do not.
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#3
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 4:16 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: After hanging out at my parent's house yesterday and talking to my father, it re-occurred to me how unique Christians believe their faith is in comparison to other religions (even Catholics--my folks are evangelicals) because they genuinely think those are works-based systems of salvation whereas Protestantism proclaims heaven's gate open to anyone who simply "believes."

Except that there is nothing simple about it. I could easily conceive of myself going about all the rituals and traditions (the "religion part") as "acts" of faith but ACTUALLY believing all that biblical nonsense (the "relationship part")? Now THAT seems like hard work. At most I can only picture myself as miserably and hypocritically pretending to be sincere while deep down constantly reminding myself how silly and petty and UNTRUE the whole Gospel story reads and feels.

Also, what's this "faith is a 'free' or 'deliberate' choice" thing? I don't get that bit at all either.

Yes. Luther suffered a lot from worrying about whether he was a 'good enough' Christian. This is sometimes known as 'scrupulosity' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity). And so he focussed on those passages in scripture that talk about salvation through faith and down-played those that talked about the reward of works. But the irony then is that he created another kind of worry in place of scrupulosity; the worry about whether one has good and proper faith.

A bit of trivia: the early Calvinists thought that feelings were totally unreliable, and that saving grace would be evidenced by subsequent good works (the works being a result of, not cause of, salvation). The habit of a personal diary/journal started with these Calvinists as they used the journal to examine their lives for evidence of salvation.

Just on faith being a choice. Normal Christian theology is that no man can freely choose faith, because of something that has gone wrong with us. So faith is always seen as a gift. There are then two main camps on how this works: the Calvinists consider that the gift is only given to some, and that it is irresistible. The Arminianists consider that the gift is given to all, who can choose to accept or reject it.
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#4
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 4:16 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: After hanging out at my parent's house yesterday and talking to my father, it re-occurred to me how unique Christians believe their faith is in comparison to other religions (even Catholics--my folks are evangelicals) because they genuinely think those are works-based systems of salvation whereas Protestantism proclaims heaven's gate open to anyone who simply "believes."

Except that there is nothing simple about it. I could easily conceive of myself going about all the rituals and traditions (the "religion part") as "acts" of faith but ACTUALLY believing all that biblical nonsense (the "relationship part")? Now THAT seems like hard work. At most I can only picture myself as miserably and hypocritically pretending to be sincere while deep down constantly reminding myself how silly and petty and UNTRUE the whole Gospel story reads and feels.

Also, what's this "faith is a 'free' or 'deliberate' choice" thing? I don't get that bit at all either.

Paul tell the Corinthians in Chapter 2:18 The teaching about the cross seems foolish to those who are lost. But to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise.
I will confuse the understanding of the intelligent.”

20 So what does this say about the philosopher, the law expert, or anyone in this world who is skilled in making clever arguments? God has made the wisdom of the world look foolish. 21 This is what God in his wisdom decided: Since the world did not find him through its own wisdom, he used the message that sounds foolish to save those who believe it.

22 The Jews ask for miraculous signs, and the Greeks want wisdom. 23 But this is the message we tell everyone: Christ was killed on a cross. This message is a problem for Jews, and to other people it is nonsense. 24 But Christ is God’s power and wisdom to the people God has chosen, both Jews and Greeks. 25 Even the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom. Even the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

IF you want understanding of the things of God and not simply go through the motions, you Must seek the Holy Spirit first.

It is the Holy Spirit that can provide clarity. In doing so all one needs is a mustard seed of faith, and simply A/S/K for this gift and understanding.

As far as faith, we all have and use a degree of faith in whatever we believe, no matter the subject. Christ tells us if we use the smallest amount of faith and place it in Him/What He says. Then we will be able to move mountains of doubt.

(September 2, 2014 at 5:58 am)Diablo Wrote: That's the problem with belief, isn't it? By definition it's irrational. Of course, some people are smart enough to question their childhood indoctrination, but most do not.

Merrium-Webster Dictionary does not seem to agree.


1

: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing


2

: something believed; especially: a tenet or body of tenets held by a group


3

: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
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#5
RE: Faith and Works
I never understood why someone would think faith being more important than works would be preferable. I think there is a verse where Jesus says works are important, but faith is still more importance. That's why people try to convert others on death row, or on their death beds.

I would expect a just god to judge someone on how they lived their life, rather than who they sucked up to. Let's say you worship Zeus, but you're a great guy who does everything he can to better himself and the world around him. Why would a benevolent deity declare those good works filthy rage, and sentence the guy to hell because he said the wrong name during prayers?
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#6
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 10:05 am)Drich Wrote:
(September 2, 2014 at 4:16 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: After hanging out at my parent's house yesterday and talking to my father, it re-occurred to me how unique Christians believe their faith is in comparison to other religions (even Catholics--my folks are evangelicals) because they genuinely think those are works-based systems of salvation whereas Protestantism proclaims heaven's gate open to anyone who simply "believes."

Except that there is nothing simple about it. I could easily conceive of myself going about all the rituals and traditions (the "religion part") as "acts" of faith but ACTUALLY believing all that biblical nonsense (the "relationship part")? Now THAT seems like hard work. At most I can only picture myself as miserably and hypocritically pretending to be sincere while deep down constantly reminding myself how silly and petty and UNTRUE the whole Gospel story reads and feels.

Also, what's this "faith is a 'free' or 'deliberate' choice" thing? I don't get that bit at all either.

Paul tell the Corinthians in Chapter 2:18 The teaching about the cross seems foolish to those who are lost. But to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise.
I will confuse the understanding of the intelligent.”

20 So what does this say about the philosopher, the law expert, or anyone in this world who is skilled in making clever arguments? God has made the wisdom of the world look foolish. 21 This is what God in his wisdom decided: Since the world did not find him through its own wisdom, he used the message that sounds foolish to save those who believe it.

22 The Jews ask for miraculous signs, and the Greeks want wisdom. 23 But this is the message we tell everyone: Christ was killed on a cross. This message is a problem for Jews, and to other people it is nonsense. 24 But Christ is God’s power and wisdom to the people God has chosen, both Jews and Greeks. 25 Even the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom. Even the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

IF you want understanding of the things of God and not simply go through the motions, you Must seek the Holy Spirit first.

It is the Holy Spirit that can provide clarity. In doing so all one needs is a mustard seed of faith, and simply A/S/K for this gift and understanding.

As far as faith, we all have and use a degree of faith in whatever we believe, no matter the subject. Christ tells us if we use the smallest amount of faith and place it in Him/What He says. Then we will be able to move mountains of doubt.

(September 2, 2014 at 5:58 am)Diablo Wrote: That's the problem with belief, isn't it? By definition it's irrational. Of course, some people are smart enough to question their childhood indoctrination, but most do not.

Merrium-Webster Dictionary does not seem to agree.


1

: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing


2

: something believed; especially: a tenet or body of tenets held by a group


3

: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

That excludes religious belief then, since there isn't any evidence. Thanks for confirming my point.
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#7
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Chad32 Wrote: I would expect a just god to judge someone on how they lived their life, rather than who they sucked up to.
You might expect that, but what said believers wish for is a reward for sycophancy. Common, unsurprising, disgusting, eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#8
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 10:52 am)Rhythm Wrote:
(September 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Chad32 Wrote: I would expect a just god to judge someone on how they lived their life, rather than who they sucked up to.
You might expect that, but what said believers wish for is a reward for sycophancy. Common, unsurprising, disgusting, eh?

I can't argue with that.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

Reply
#9
RE: Faith and Works
(September 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Chad32 Wrote: I never understood why someone would think faith being more important than works would be preferable. I think there is a verse where Jesus says works are important, but faith is still more importance. That's why people try to convert others on death row, or on their death beds.

I would expect a just god to judge someone on how they lived their life, rather than who they sucked up to. Let's say you worship Zeus, but you're a great guy who does everything he can to better himself and the world around him. Why would a benevolent deity declare those good works filthy rage, and sentence the guy to hell because he said the wrong name during prayers?

The answer to this lies in the illustrations and examples he made of the pharrisees. In their case they live a life perfect in accordance to the law, and performed every single work perscribed. But, their haerts were far from God. They used the law as a weapon to opress and enslave those who wanted to worship God. The law became a means to place them in a position of power and authority.. Jesus saw this and pointed out their hyprocrisy many many times.

In short God wants your heart. He wants you to want the things of the law more than anything else, but He also knows we are literal slaves to sin and can not follow the law completly. (as Christ completed the Law) So our belief in Him in the attonement He offers is what saves us.. Does this mean we stop following the Law? No. It means if we give our hearts to God then what we will want are the things God wants for us. Meaning we will do the things outlined in the moral law of God, but we will not earn salvation through them.
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#10
RE: Faith and Works
If one is sincerely faithful, good works would be well nigh unavoidable.

I'd think it being switched around would be true too, if one is not doing good works, one is most likely not sincerely faithful.
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