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Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm
What what will would happen to the christian religion of there is not? As it is right now the only reason to think there could be freewill is because of the heinzberg uncertainty principle which states that you cannot know where the electron is. This principle was postulated in the 1920s, and has yet to be proven wrong. How ever there is good reason to think it may be wrong, and simply a limitation of our knowledge and technology. If that is the case that mean that according to classical everything has been set in motion since the big bang. In other words no freewill.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm
(This post was last modified: September 15, 2014 at 1:21 pm by Darkstar.)
If there is quantum uncertainty, we wouldn't be controlling it. Strict determinism could be disproven by that principle, but the existence of such randomness would not necessarily give rise to truly free will. Just my two cents.
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 3:49 pm
(September 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: If there is quantum uncertainty, we wouldn't be controlling it. Strict determinism could be disproven by that principle, but the existence of such randomness would not necessarily give rise to truly free will. Just my two cents.
What I'm thinking is what if it is not truly random but only random as we perceive it?
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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80
RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 3:59 pm
No, only free agency. What Christians mean by free will is actually free agency. It's laziness with words.
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 4:12 pm
(This post was last modified: September 15, 2014 at 4:12 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Lacking knowledge does not equate to "having free will" or "free agency".
Rebranding free will as free agency won't actually solve any of the problems - it's just ditching a term for a weak position in favor of a term that may obfuscate the fact that you have piled your sandbags back up -on the same position-.
"I'm not going to die on hill 247 - I'm going to occupy hill 645."
- "Sir...I've been looking at the map and"
"Shut up private, the enemy might hear you"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 5:40 pm
The two terms mean something quite different rhythm, but I won't piss on your parade further.
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 5:45 pm
(This post was last modified: September 15, 2014 at 5:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So you claim. The ink smudges on my map suggest otherwise. I'm always down for directing a little arty your way my love, care to elaborate upon the difference?
(hi, btw, been awhile..lol - how've you been?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 5:47 pm
Well no, I don't claim anything. Different words with quite different meaning. But I guess the smudged ink stops you seeing them.
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 6:07 pm
(September 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: What what will would happen to the christian religion of there is not? As it is right now the only reason to think there could be freewill is because of the heinzberg uncertainty principle which states that you cannot know where the electron is. This principle was postulated in the 1920s, and has yet to be proven wrong. How ever there is good reason to think it may be wrong, and simply a limitation of our knowledge and technology. If that is the case that mean that according to classical everything has been set in motion since the big bang. In other words no freewill.
Ignoring science/history/archaeology has never proven difficult before.
That isn't really what the uncertainty principle says. You can't know both momentum and position at the same time (these aren't the only properties that cannot be simultaneously be known).
I can't personally think of a way you could test whether someone has free will or not. Take this thought experiment:
1. You ask someone to pick heads or tails
2 You somehow reset the universe (multiple times if needed) and see if the person picks a different option.
I'm not sure if either outcome of this experiment actually shows anything. If the choice is different, it might be that deep down any decision is made fuzzy by the uncertainty principle. But if decisions are just down to a random factor, is this free will?
Does a computer program with a random factor attached to its decision making have free will? Could you tell the difference between this and a human?
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RE: Is there freewill?
September 15, 2014 at 7:10 pm
Can the outcome of our actions, or our actions themselves be predicted when sufficient data is provided? Yes.
When there is sufficient data and the capability to process that data exists then it is possible to make accurate predictions and thus there is no free will in theory. However, in practice it is quite impossible to gather every bit of data and process that data to accurately predict everything, and hence for now, there is free will.
It might change when the illuminati takes control though....
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