Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
October 19, 2014 at 11:28 pm (This post was last modified: October 19, 2014 at 11:32 pm by Vivalarevolution.)
Well I see that none of you are outright against the possibility of some intelligence planning of all together ( even if it was just a fairy or people from krypton).
That was also was what Albert Einstein said about his beliefs. That the working universe of the universe was set up so complex that it made sense to think it was all created by an intelligence
(October 19, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well I see that none of you are outright against the possibility of some intelligence planning of all together ( even if it was just a fairy or people from krypton).
That was also was what Albert Einstein said about his beliefs. That the working universe of the universe was set up so complex that it made sense to think it was all created by an intelligence
As expected, you see what you want to see. Saying that its possible doesn't mean it is probable or even that it makes sense. For example, a lion with a goat's legs, fish scales and a snake for a tail is "possible" - doesn't mean such a creature makes sense.
October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 2:46 am by Vivalarevolution.)
(October 19, 2014 at 11:59 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(October 19, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well I see that none of you are outright against the possibility of some intelligence planning of all together ( even if it was just a fairy or people from krypton).
That was also was what Albert Einstein said about his beliefs. That the working universe of the universe was set up so complex that it made sense to think it was all created by an intelligence
As expected, you see what you want to see. Saying that its possible doesn't mean it is probable or even that it makes sense. For example, a lion with a goat's legs, fish scales and a snake for a tail is "possible" - doesn't mean such a creature makes sense.
How is a lion with goat legs possible? Please use a better analogy
And please tell, what about the opinion that the universe was designed by an intelligent designer/ architect/engineer doesn't make sense.?
Can you 100 % be certain of the scenario that it isn't this way? If you can't, you would be agnostic. Can you say for SURE that we are the cause of our existence is that the universe just HAPPENED to start with the big bang, stars formed, chemicals formed, planets etc . . . are we to give credit for our existence just to luck?
Because if the universe worked in any other way than it did in the past 13.7 billion years . . . It's safe to say we wouldn't exist.
So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created. If even one planet out of 8, (except maybe mercury) would never have been created, earth wouldn't still be the same distance from the sun (and our position right now is perfect).
These conditions were necessary for life. Why out of the infinite number of other possibilities, like what if dark energy really didn't / doesn't exist to expand the universe with the same "force" (I can't think of a better word) it does now?
Logic, and laws dictate that there should've been multiple future possibilities. And since you proved chaos, there was no reason for things to happen as they did. And yet they have. Out of the multiple future possibilities, we HAPPENED to come to life.
Luck?
PS- I really would love to know if there were multiverses where they work different to our universe . . . How their systems formed, if and how life evolved there and how life evolved when the properties of the multiverses were different from ours. Really exciting field!
(October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: And please tell, what about the opinion that the universe was designed by an intelligent designer/ architect/engineer doesn't make sense.?
Can you 100 % be certain of the scenario that it isn't this way? Can you say for SURE that we are the cause of our existence is that the universe just HAPPENED to start with the big bang, stars formed, chemicals formed, planets etc . . . are we to give credit for our existence just to luck?
Because if the universe worked in any other way than it did in the past 13.7 billion years . . . It's safe to say we wouldn't exist.
So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created. If even one planet out of 8, (except maybe mercury) would never have been created, earth wouldn't still be the same distance from the sun (and our position right now is perfect).
These conditions were necessary for life. Why out of the infinite number of other possibilities, like what if dark energy really didn't / doesn't exist to expand the universe with the same "force" (I can't think of a better word) it does now?
Logic, and laws dictate that there should've been multiple future possibilities. And since you proved chaos, there was no reason for things to happen as they did. And yet they have. Out of the multiple future possibilities, we HAPPENED to come to life.
Luck?
Can you be 100% certain that a designer didn't create the universe? Can you say for SURE that the universe did NOT NATURALLY HAPPENED? Can you say for SURE that stars didn't formed, chemicals didn't formed, nor planets etc . . . are we to give credit for our existence just to natural processes instead of magic daddy in the sky?
Because if the universe worked in any other way than it did in the past 13.7 billion years . . . It's safe to say we wouldn't exist.
So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created. The planet that has the a high potential of life evolving evolved life.
Why out of the infinite number of other possibilities, like where animals evolved to give us free booze and pizza for everyone?
Logic, and laws dictate that there shouldn't have been multiple future possibilities. And since you proved chaos, there was no reason for things to happen as they did execpt for cause and effect. Out of the multiple future possibilities, we HAPPENED (the human race).
(October 19, 2014 at 2:16 pm)Vivalarevolution Wrote: If you don't mind I have a few questions. I'm orthodox Christian btw
Why is the universe the way it is? Brilliant and beautiful?
Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure some people out there think it is ugly and hideous.
Quote:Why does it have to be in order? Why can't it be chaotic? Why can't the speed of light change?
Becuase then the reactions neccessary for life are impossible, namely the nuclear reactions within stars. You see in e=mc2 C means spped of light, and that equation is so import because it allows to know how much energy is a bit of matter, and the equation works because they intertwined. In other words such a univer could not have life.
Quote:Why is gravity between two bodies proportional to product of the masses? Why not anything else? (Note inversely proportional equation doesn't count). Why can't the laws of thermodynamics be changed? Why are laws the way they are?
Ulitimately I'm just going to head you off here, because I don't know, and thank hell I don't know because living in a world were all the puzzles are already solved sound depressing.
Quote: why is the energy in the universe constant? Why can't it be destroyed or created
Define energy
Quote: why is heat transfer done from warm regions to cold regions and not the other way around
The Laws of entropy
Quote:In short, why does the universe need to conform to the laws?
It doesn't have to at all. It just does. Maybe there is another universe where the speed of light is in total flux.
Quote: Doesn't the fact that the laws can't be changed or substituted indicate there could be a higher power that set it all in place?
No and infact this is antithetical to the god of the bible, because this demonstrates forsight and patience, niether are attributes of the biblical god
Quote: Hypothetically, the universe could very well be chaotic. But it's not
I'll check out your answers and reply tomorrow
Also notice, the actions and thinking of living things are the only things without law ( free will)
What makes you think we really have free will, instead of an appearance of freewill? The real scientific backing to free will is the fact that some phenomenon are random in so far as we can tell. Besides your bible says the future is knowable even if only by a all knowing god. If god can know the future that mean he can now our choices before we make them, thus no free will.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
October 20, 2014 at 5:59 am (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 6:02 am by Ben Davis.)
Hi Vivalarevolution,
(October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: ...what about the opinion that the universe was designed by an intelligent designer/ architect/engineer doesn't make sense.?
That there's no reliable evidence to support this position. I'm also interested in what attributes you would attach to this 'designer'. Is it a theistic god? A deistic god? An incompetent engineer at a CERN reactor in another universe?
Quote:Can you 100 % be certain of the scenario that it isn't this way?
Can you be 100% sure that it is? That's clearly a loaded question. Certainty isn't the issue as we can never really be 100% certain of anything. All we can know is what the facts tell us, what the likeliest interpretations are from the preponderance of evidence. As new evidence is uncovered, as our knowledge grows, our interpretations are updated thus becoming more accurate. Do you acknowledge the prudence of that methodology?
Quote:If you can't, you would be agnostic.
Indeed. In terms of intellectual honesty, I'm happy to admit that I'm agnostic, ultimately. That doesn't make me any less of an atheist.
Quote:Can you say for SURE that we are the cause of our existence is that the universe just HAPPENED to start with the big bang, stars formed, chemicals formed, planets etc . . . are we to give credit for our existence just to luck?
'Luck' is the wrong word. 'Happenstance' is better: the conditions were such that the big bang occurred, stars formed etc.
Quote:Because if the universe worked in any other way than it did in the past 13.7 billion years . . . It's safe to say we wouldn't exist.[quote]
Not necessarily the tautology it seems. There's been some research done which indicates that the fundamental forces of the universe could operate differently and life would still be possible.
[quote]So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created. If even one planet out of 8, (except maybe mercury) would never have been created, earth wouldn't still be the same distance from the sun (and our position right now is perfect).
These conditions were necessary for life. Why out of the infinite number of other possibilities, like what if dark energy really didn't / doesn't exist to expand the universe with the same "force" (I can't think of a better word) it does now?
We don't know that the possibilities are infinite. It's possible that the fundamental forces of the universe can be no other way than that which they are (e.g. they could be described by the systems which gave rise to the big bang). In which case, life would be inevitable.
Quote:Logic, and laws dictate that there should've been multiple future possibilities. And since you proved chaos, there was no reason for things to happen as they did. And yet they have. Out of the multiple future possibilities, we HAPPENED to come to life.
What logic and which laws?
Quote:Luck?
Happenstance.
Quote:PS- I really would love to know if there were multiverses where they work different to our universe . . . How their systems formed, if and how life evolved there and how life evolved when the properties of the multiverses were different from ours. Really exciting field!
Indeed! Of the various models proposed, I'm a fan of the one where every possible alternative is played out. I don't know if that's what actually happens but the idea of infinite phase-space is appealing to me.
October 20, 2014 at 6:08 am (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 6:10 am by Cyberman.)
(October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created.
Not one star; countless billions, with more being born all the time. But even so, why is that so improbable? You're trying to assert that in a universe of infinite possibilities, it's at least possible that this intelligent agency of yours has a chance of existing (or at least can't be shown not to exist; a textbook argument from ignorance). The difference between the scenario you're positing is we have a well-substantiated body of evidence of how stars and planets form naturally. Do the same for your intelligent agency and we'd need never again have this discussion.
(October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: If even one planet out of 8, (except maybe mercury) would never have been created, earth wouldn't still be the same distance from the sun (and our position right now is perfect)
Define 'perfect', because the Earth's orbital distance varies by around 3000 miles over the course of a year. That's chicken feed in orbital dynamics, of course, but now you have to justify such a margin of error in your 'perfection'.
Not to mention that the Sun is eventually going to swell into a red giant, vaporising everything out to Mars. Is that included in your definition of 'perfect' as well?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
October 20, 2014 at 6:23 am (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 6:25 am by Alex K.)
(October 19, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well I see that none of you are outright against the possibility of some intelligence planning of all together ( even if it was just a fairy or people from krypton).
That was also was what Albert Einstein said about his beliefs. That the working universe of the universe was set up so complex that it made sense to think it was all created by an intelligence
I'm not against it (it makes absolutely no sense to be against something out of principle that could be true), it's just that
1. there is no reason to believe that it is true. There are arbitrarily many propositions which could be true but are unproven, and the only way to
not believe an infinite amount of nonsense is to reject such propositions. call it Occam's Razor, call it Bayes Theorem, or call it common sense, the result is the same:
we should not believe that such an intelligent designer exists unless there is real evidence for it.
2. it doesn't solve your problem but only removes it one step further. An intelligence which sets up our world in such a systematic way itself requires, according to your premise, the same explanation again as the world itself.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
(October 20, 2014 at 12:48 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: ...what about the opinion that the universe was designed by an intelligent designer/ architect/engineer doesn't make sense.?
That there's no reliable evidence to support this position. I'm also interested in what attributes you would attach to this 'designer'. Is it a theistic god? A deistic god? An incompetent engineer at a CERN reactor in another universe?
Quote:Can you 100 % be certain of the scenario that it isn't this way?
Can you be 100% sure that it is? That's clearly a loaded question. Certainty isn't the issue as we can never really be 100% certain of anything. All we can know is what the facts tell us, what the likeliest interpretations are from the preponderance of evidence. As new evidence is uncovered, as our knowledge grows, our interpretations are updated thus becoming more accurate. Do you acknowledge the prudence of that methodology?
Quote:If you can't, you would be agnostic.
Indeed. In terms of intellectual honesty, I'm happy to admit that I'm agnostic, ultimately. That doesn't make me any less of an atheist.
Quote:Can you say for SURE that we are the cause of our existence is that the universe just HAPPENED to start with the big bang, stars formed, chemicals formed, planets etc . . . are we to give credit for our existence just to luck?
'Luck' is the wrong word. 'Happenstance' is better: the conditions were such that the big bang occurred, stars formed etc.
Quote:Because if the universe worked in any other way than it did in the past 13.7 billion years . . . It's safe to say we wouldn't exist.
Not necessarily the tautology it seems. There's been some research done which indicates that the fundamental forces of the universe could operate differently and life would still be possible.
Quote:So out of the infinite possibilities of what could have happened, we have a star created from a molecular cloud collapse, 4.57 billion years ago, planets got created. If even one planet out of 8, (except maybe mercury) would never have been created, earth wouldn't still be the same distance from the sun (and our position right now is perfect).
These conditions were necessary for life. Why out of the infinite number of other possibilities, like what if dark energy really didn't / doesn't exist to expand the universe with the same "force" (I can't think of a better word) it does now?
We don't know that the possibilities are infinite. It's possible that the fundamental forces of the universe can be no other way than that which they are (e.g. they could be described by the systems which gave rise to the big bang). In which case, life would be inevitable.
Quote:Logic, and laws dictate that there should've been multiple future possibilities. And since you proved chaos, there was no reason for things to happen as they did. And yet they have. Out of the multiple future possibilities, we HAPPENED to come to life.
What logic and which laws?
Quote:Luck?
Happenstance.
Quote:PS- I really would love to know if there were multiverses where they work different to our universe . . . How their systems formed, if and how life evolved there and how life evolved when the properties of the multiverses were different from ours. Really exciting field!
Indeed! Of the various models proposed, I'm a fan of the one where every possible alternative is played out. I don't know if that's what actually happens but the idea of infinite phase-space is appealing to me.
Good answer.
And yes . . . As of this thread I am addressing Deism. THAT'S the word I needed. I forgot. Thanks
