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RE: Full circle
November 30, 2014 at 1:42 am
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 2:07 am by IATIA.)
(November 16, 2014 at 2:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: (November 16, 2014 at 2:08 pm)IATIA Wrote: I disagree and believe you to be wrong.
Do you honestly think that the argument from ignorance is a cogent philosophical argument?  Technically speaking, everyone on this site (including myself) is arguing from ignorance. Unless I missed a thread where someone actually posted some evidence of reality or existence.
And again, for those that missed it, 'I think therefore I am" is evidence of nothing.
(November 16, 2014 at 2:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
It was not a dichotomy as the argument was not about the choices but rather choice itself. How about this then. I have a choice, turn left and drive off a cliff or turn right and continue on my merry way, stop, go home, stop at the nearest bar, push my car, leave my car, sell my car, have lunch, pray to mecca, make a list of all possible choices and throw a dart at it, etc.. Each moment would present a multiplex of new choices, which sometimes makes the previous choice moot or enhances it, or exists as a direct cause of the choice.
The point however is, are these choices made by my body which, as a direct result of bio-chemical reactions, makes me think I made the choice or is my awareness above and beyond my physiology.
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RE: Full circle
November 30, 2014 at 7:52 am
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 8:00 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 30, 2014 at 1:42 am)IATIA Wrote: The point however is, are these choices made by my body which, as a direct result of bio-chemical reactions, makes me think I made the choice or is my awareness above and beyond my physiology. Well, we certainly don't have any evidence for the latter...and everything we have indicates the former. Additionally, I don't see why your awareness would need to be above and beyond your physiology. Awareness can be described and modeled by systems far less robust than the one you're carting around between your ears.
Personally, I'm in the body camp...but I would hesitate to call what the body does in issue of choice or free will(but only because I'm never really sure what someone means by that). I just don't know where I'd cut the line to determinism, or for what reason. If we were discussing a much slimmer notion of "choice" - bare bones- sure. Presented with a range of options that are limited by a variety of factors - confined to what I am capable of perceiving or achieving in my current state, in pursuit of a positively valued outcome....my body does work. That I conceptualize this as "choice" really isn't all that surprising, given the work done and the equipment used. However, I'm aware of my limitations - the constraints put upon me in any choice (from numerous angles), the effect of conditioning, and also how other systems that we would not describe as being "above their body" or even having will or awareness could achieve the same effect - so it's difficult for me to call it "free will" or postulate a floating mind.
It doesn't seem all that free, or, really, free at all......and all of the things that appear to have will or mind, or make choices...seem to also possess systems or attributes capable of achieving those effects by well understood means. That damage or absence of those systems and attributes which are capable of achieving the effect appear to have an effect -on the effect itself- is the nail in the coffin for me, in the context of having no indications to the contrary, or evidence of an alternative whatsoever......with no requirement that an alternative be present.
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