A rant on gender stereotypes

[Jenny A]

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The other day I talked with my parents and my brother. My eldest brother is 23 now, and I'm 27, and I began thinking after talking to him.

Most of the time I don't think about gender stereotypes. I'm aware of them, I have always been, but since I am a student I don't have much time to dwell on them and most of the time it's just to say fuck it. But talking to him I did think on it. I am a woman. I can fix wiring in my home, do maintanence on my car including brakes belts and wiring, I do carpentry, I work making and testing concrete, I am a student of engineering. Add to this I can neither cook not sew. I am horrid at cleaning, wear work boots and jeans stained with concrete and grease (nice clothes are not compatible with cranes and concrete mixers :p ). Almost all female stereotypes I scorn. My brother is a music major. He is an excellent cook, and a good musician. He is stylish, and takes great pride in his suits. He can knit. And he is inept with any physical task. He can't even change a tire. He doesn't play sports, he has disdain for them, despite the fact that he is tall and very strong. He is also aware of the gender stereotypes, but I don't know what he thinks of them, except that he laughs at a number of them.

Both of is receive some trouble from these. For my brother in his chosen profession it only amounts to a little mocking. But in myself, I don't like it. I've never liked it. When I was a young girl growing up I beat up any boy who spoke them to me. By genetic accident I am, and was, bigger and stronger than most of them (I'm 5'9", and fairly strong and well muscled). As an adult it varies from glances at me I'm not supposed to notice to having to fight against preferential treatment given to my male classmates. I don't like people who look at me like I'm broken, or that I'm abnormal. Simply because I won't plaster my face with powders and I don't dress or act like they think I should.

But why? Why do these stereotypes exist and wha purpose do they serve (other than to irritate)? I know that men don't all hate or oppress women, but they are aware of those stereotypes as well as I am. Even those men who are my friends and acquaintances still see me as somewhat odd.

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I am not just schizophrenic about gender stereo types, I'm of about 13 minds about them.

I am the family, carpenter, plumber, electrician, and occasionally roofer. I like those chores and my husband doesn't. Sometimes I need help, usually just another pair of hands and he helps. But those aren't his favorite kinds of work.

But then I also decided to stay home with the kids and cook (which I like) and clean which I don't like so much.

I have been the bread winner in the past and had something amounting to a househusband.

I think there are sexual differences beyond strength, plumbing, soft bumps, and procreation equipment. It's just that those differences aren't as cut and dried as the difference between a penis and a vagina. Whether it's verbal skills, strength, pain tolerance, mathematical ability, etc. the genders appear to differ, but it's two bell curves offset, not a chasm between two bell curves. There's always more people in the overlap between the two curves than at the tail ends.

I like men, and the difference is more than that protrusion between the legs. . .

[Aoi Magi]

I saw a program on discovery or nat-geo which said that in the past the primary concern of humans was to produce offsprings, and as such females of our species had to stay put most of the time due to pregnancy or nursing the babies, and the males had to do the hunting/gathering. This lifestyle slowly conditioned the two genders to be good at specific tasks. Women normally stayed indoors and got good at things which required mental strength, while men became proficient at things needing physical strength. This trend continued onwards and became a part of the social structure. Now we as humans normally fear the unknown or unexpected things, and when we see a member of the opposite gender do something which we are not used to seeing them do, there is a subtle fear acting in the back of our minds which manifests as dislike, irritation and hate.

[John V]

It's not circular, it's the only truthful explanation - Highly deeply ingrained socially accepted gender roles and more specifically patriarchal principles (like men holding higher paying jobs being the rule). If you do not acknowledge this, you need a lesson on sociology.

Why do societies have rules which favor men over women? Because men with superiority complexes made the rules.

Why do men have superiority complexes? Because societal rules favoring men condition them to feel superior.

Yes, it's completely circular.

[Alex K]

It's not circular, it's the only truthful explanation - Highly deeply ingrained socially accepted gender roles and more specifically patriarchal principles (like men holding higher paying jobs being the rule). If you do not acknowledge this, you need a lesson on sociology.

Why do societies have rules which favor men over women? Because men with superiority complexes made the rules.

Why do men have superiority complexes? Because societal rules favoring men condition them to feel superior.

Yes, it's completely circular.

It's circular alright. It's called vicious circle, and it's an actual thing, not a fallacy.

[John V]

It's circular alright. It's called vicious circle, and it's an actual thing, not a fallacy.

No, it's a fallacy. I agree that the construct is self-reinforcing once it's begun, but the construct cannot be used to explain its own beginning.

[Dystopia]

I suppose I have the opposite problem. Other feminist think I'm letting down the team because of my super girlishness. I like pink ponies. I crochete. I sew. (Sewing is a life skill and a money saver people!)And run a tight ship in my kitchen. And I simply don't understand anyone who's uncomfortable in a skirt. I can't stand pants! They're awful, and they never fit just right. Why would you restrict your legs that way? Ugh!

As long as that's who you are, the only people who might be made are feminazis, because many feminists wear skirts, make-up and other things associated with girlishness.

I actually don't like pants that much, I prefer when it's summer to wear shorts. And I'm lucky that it's socially acceptable for males to wear above the knee shorts

[Alex K]

It's circular alright. It's called vicious circle, and it's an actual thing, not a fallacy.

No, it's a fallacy. I agree that the construct is self-reinforcing once it's begun, but the construct cannot be used to explain its own beginning.

The fact that it's self-reinforcing, i.e., with positive feedback, could mean that small more or less random fluctuations gave rise to it. But there are of course obvious differences such as differences in bodily strength, on average, which could have rendered males dominant in society on average. Does anyone here argue for complete biological equality?

[Dystopia]

No, it's a fallacy. I agree that the construct is self-reinforcing once it's begun, but the construct cannot be used to explain its own beginning.

The fact that it's self-reinforcing, i.e., with positive feedback, could mean that small more or less random fluctuations gave rise to it. But there are of course obvious differences such as differences in bodily strength, on average, which could have rendered males dominant in society on average. Does anyone here argue for complete biological equality?

Of course not, but there are many kinds of behaviour that are more social conditioned than biologically determined - For instance boys not being able to express feelings has been proven to be wrong because men can feel emotions as much as women, and women can be very aggressive, not necessarily physically, but they can have a generally more aggressive non-passive behaviour and it's not unnatural for that, yet we criticize it because it doesn't fit the dichotomy of agressive V passive and strong V sensitive.

The truth is I'm betting half of the behaviour people think it's biologically determined can actually be socially conditioned and it's not a biological result. honestly there's the obvious difference in physical constitution and strength, but I don't seem how a female cannot be an aggressive, strong community leader as much as a man. It depends on the inividual

[paulpablo]

The existence of stereotypes is not important. It's what we do with them.

Women are, on average, not as physically-strong as men. This is how we justify gender discrimination in sports. It doesn't matter that an individual woman might have all the physical prowess and training to play on their level. It doesn't matter that she might be a better quarterback than Tom Brady or hit more long 3s than Larry Bird. Because she has a vagina, she's automatically disqualified. All other things being equal, the parts in your pants are all that actually matters to a lot of people.

That's stupid and wrong.

Tom Brady is 6 ft 3, 224 kg in weight 40 yard dash 5.28 seconds plus obviously the skill he has.
I don't think anyone with a vagina has these statistics on their side.
I don't think any woman even on steroids would have that kind of physical prowess.
I'm really glad about this though, I think women would stop turning me on if they were equal to men in muscular build and testosterone.

[abaris]

Why do men have superiority complexes? Because societal rules favoring men condition them to feel superior.

Yes, it's completely circular.

No. because the mediterranian cultures had this rules in place. As I said, neither did the Northern European people such as the Celts dwell on a purely masculine society, nor did the cultures in what's now known as Russia.

The male rule of a particular region has been perpetuated by supposedly holy scripture, where this scripture originated. And even in those cultures that were already paternalistic the arrival of monotheism worsened the situation by excluding women from priesthood, one of the few domains where they could still play a role in society.