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Implications of not having free will
#1
Implications of not having free will
I realise there's a similar thread to this but I wanted to narrow things down to the implications of not having free will, which I honesty find disconcerting. However, if you feel you can provide evidence against my argument for it not existing do feel free, I think I'd prefer to believe I had it!

To start with I will briefly explain why I do not believe we have free will.

Imagine there's a worm crawling across the floor - you shine a torch at it; it's eyes detect the light stimuli which triggers a chain of electro-chemical reactions in it's neural cells, and it moves away from the torch. This automatic response was the only way the worm could have reacted, the result of the chemical structure of it's brain (or ganglia) and the environmental stimuli it was receiving.
Now take a mouse - while it's brain is immeasurably more complex than the worms, it's actions should work is the same way, but with many more possible outcomes.
Seeing as we are animals too, it is only logical to conclude that human free will is purely an illusion of the seemingly infinite number of possible linear responses we can produce. We do make a choice based on our genetics and past experiences, but the choice we make is the only one we could have made given our brains current chemical structure and the environmental stimuli we received.

Sorry if that's unnecessarily long-winded, I could just say free will is impossible in a deterministic universe.

So the important bit is the implications. If what I've just said is true, then that means the future is predetermined. I had to write this post. If I move my finger left then right, I feel like I chose to do that but actually it was the only thing I could have done. I can't choose to stop smoking or to smoke more because it was all decided 14 billion years ago when a quantum fluctuation caused a bubble of space time to start expanding. We're essentially just along for a ride and powerless to change the route we're taking, and I find that odd to say the least.

Is there any other conclusion that can be drawn given the premise?


I've thought about apparent quantum randomness, but:
1. I don't think quantum events really are random(?), they're a superposition of every possible event until they're observed and they become part of the dimension that you and I called home at least up to the point that I posted this thread;

and 2. Even if they were random, our reality is built on the probabilities arising from the quantum world and is therefore effectively deterministic for humans anyway.

My knowledge of quantum physics is very limited so correct me if I'm wrong here!
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#2
RE: Implications of not having free will
The most serious issue by far is that criminals couldn't be convicted because their guilt was predetermined by variables they couldn't control - Committing crimes becomes a chain of reactions [naturalistic] that the subject doesn't control. This is why in criminal law we assume free will exists at least as a fiction, otherwise it would compromise the entire system.

We can only consider someone guilty if they are able to choose between breaking or not breaking the law - If someone has their behaviour predetermined then it's not possible to attribute guilt to anyone.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#3
RE: Implications of not having free will
Balderdash. You can still attribute guilt, just not moral desert. Then the thing which changes is only the rationale we use to justify punishing them, which is still available via the rationales of rehabilitation, deterrence, and protecting society.
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#4
RE: Implications of not having free will
For all we know, quantum measurements are truly random, but an unknown or even undiscoverable systematic in terms of hidden variables could be behind it which lets physics be deterministic again despite the appearance. So my attitude is that quantum physics renders determinism uncertain, but does not falsify it. I disagree that the macroscopic averaging out of quantum noise makes these effects irrelevant. Noise plays an important role in neural networks and can influence the outcomes.

I don't see how true randomness would rescue free will though.

But before I go on about that, first a question: how do you define free will, I'm not sure I know what the word means
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#5
RE: Implications of not having free will
If we do not have free will, then everything that has happened will continue, status quo. The real question is whether or not the accepted knowledge of no free will would change anything. That would be answered by the ultimate question, "Is this a deterministic universe?".
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#6
RE: Implications of not having free will
(January 7, 2015 at 6:33 pm)IATIA Wrote: If we do not have free will, then everything that has happened will continue, status quo. The real question is whether or not the accepted knowledge of no free will would change anything. That would be answered by the ultimate question, "Is this a deterministic universe?".
I don't understand the last part. Also,
I understand determinism => no free will, but I don't understand the opposite direction.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#7
RE: Implications of not having free will
(January 7, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Spacedog Wrote: I can't choose to stop smoking or to smoke more because it was all decided 14 billion years ago when a quantum fluctuation caused a bubble of space time to start expanding. We're essentially just along for a ride and powerless to change the route we're taking, and I find that odd to say the least.
I might disagree, if only because I think the language here is a bit equivocal. *You* can *choose* to quite smoking, because you understand the pros and cons, and perhaps you feel compelled to quit, and you possess reasons that carry more force than immediate urges. Sure, you're not in absolute control of the results, because there are endless mitigating factors that you may not react to in a way that you'll find pleasing in retrospect, but just knowing this can be the empowering influence that tips the scales in favour of your ideal. I guess that's my problem with the language "I cannot choose." That in of itself can be debilitating, and render your "will," that is, your conscious desire, weakened.

And to say the future is predetermined can have the same effect. I rather like to think it's blind necessity that drives me on.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#8
RE: Implications of not having free will
(January 7, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Alex K Wrote:
(January 7, 2015 at 6:33 pm)IATIA Wrote: If we do not have free will, then everything that has happened will continue, status quo. The real question is whether or not the accepted knowledge of no free will would change anything. That would be answered by the ultimate question, "Is this a deterministic universe?".
I don't understand the last part. Also,
I understand determinism => no free will, but I don't understand the opposite direction.
In a deterministic universe, everything is determined from the initial big bang and continues on per quantum action reaction. If we assume no determinism and allow for random events, we still may have no free will. If we have free will, the universe cannot be deterministic. This, however would not disallow random events. Being aware of a choice and being aware of making that choice does nothing to prove you initiated that choice. We either have free will or think we have free will. The outcome is basically the same.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#9
RE: Implications of not having free will
(January 7, 2015 at 6:18 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Balderdash. You can still attribute guilt, just not moral desert. Then the thing which changes is only the rationale we use to justify punishing them, which is still available via the rationales of rehabilitation, deterrence, and protecting society.

It is, but the retributive function still exists and it is probably the most demanded fulfilment coming from the people's voice... I think the approach of no free will could be dangerous for another reason - We could feel compelled, trough observation of people's behaviour, to predict if they could be [or not] potential criminals and for said reason segregate them right away, some theories in the past have argued in favour of this - And it's not exactly off the table for some douches - If we could motion people's external conducts and predict the causes and effects in a relationship of causation, the solution seems apparent to my eyes... And this could lead to disasters to "rehabilitate" people - Lobotomies, incapacitation (i.e. I'm thinking about castrating potential sex offenders), preventive and effective jailtime without the existence of a, de facto criminal act.

Perhaps we've studied different schools, but when I studied criminal law, a deterministic proposition/approach was rejected in the beginning because criminal law wouldn't allow someone to be punished if the subject isn't able to determine his or hers behaviour according to the law - Fully making the choice of committing a crime, when she/he could have refused to engage in said act

Just throwing my thoughts in.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#10
RE: Implications of not having free will
(January 7, 2015 at 5:34 pm)Blackout Wrote: The most serious issue by far is that criminals couldn't be convicted because their guilt was predetermined by variables they couldn't control - Committing crimes becomes a chain of reactions [naturalistic] that the subject doesn't control. This is why in criminal law we assume free will exists at least as a fiction, otherwise it would compromise the entire system.

I've always found this concept to be somewhat confusing; so the criminal's actions were predetermined and uncontrollable, but somehow our putting them on trial and in prison for breaking the law isn't? Thinking

If you're going to make the first claim I think you're pretty safe in just throwing your hands up and giving up on the whole scenario as beyond your control.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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