The REAL challenge

[Huggy Bear]

Non-physical things are things like ideas they don't really have an existence other than in the mind.

Saying god is non-physical is exactly the same as saying he isn't real.

Not true.

The world around us is non-physical, we only perceive it to be physical through the aid of our five senses.
When it comes to spiritual matters, faith is the "sixth" sense, meaning, the only way of detecting God is through faith. Which is why the Bible says "Without faith it is impossible to please God"
Now, take a person that can't see, hear, feel, taste, or smell, and try to prove the existence of the "physical world", it would be impossible. Likewise is trying to prove God to someone without faith.

On that note, Jesus stated "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."
This is the "wicked and adulterous generation" he's referring to and you all (generally speaking) are looking for "evidence", and no evidence will be given to you, except the sign of Jonah (meaning his death, burial and resurrection), which will be his return.

[fr0d0]

Saying god is non-physical is exactly the same as saying he isn't real physical.

Fixed that for ya

Banging your head against the wall as a theist or an atheist isn't going to change that. You might become more stupid tho.

The logic still has to be defended. The evidence play is a cop out. No thinking required once you state that a chair is a chair is a chair.

I have no idea what you mean here.

Demanding physical evidence of the non physical is idiotic.

[The Grand Nudger]

-And proposing the non-physical with senses or statements that can only detect or refer to the physical is what?

[downbeatplumb]

Saying god is non-physical is exactly the same as saying he isn't real physical.

Fixed that for ya

I have no idea what you mean here.

Demanding physical evidence of the non physical is idiotic.

No stating that something that you consider to be an entity is non-physical is idiotic.

Non-physical things are things like love and happiness but god is not supposed to be just a concept it is supposed to be an agent with thought processes plans and aspirations which all demand some form of physicality.

---

Not true.

The world around us is non-physical, we only perceive it to be physical through the aid of our five senses.

This is utter bollocks. We use our senses to detect the physical world.

When it comes to spiritual matters, faith is the "sixth" sense, meaning, the only way of detecting God is through faith. Which is why the Bible says "Without faith it is impossible to please God"

So in order to believe you must first believe. Yep sounds like something a brainwashed sheep would say.

Now, take a person that can't see, hear, feel, taste, or smell, and try to prove the existence of the "physical world", it would be impossible. Likewise is trying to prove God to someone without faith.

Firstly how are you supposed to communicate to someone with no senses?

But setting that aside.

The difference is we know that sound, objects, flavour exist and because they all have interactions with the real world and we can explain this, even if we have to break them down to the relevant mathematical formulas and teaching the maths.
These things exist we have the science and the maths to support it.
so if it is at all possible to communicate and the person is intelligent there is a way.

This is the "wicked and adulterous generation" he's referring to and you all (generally speaking) are looking for "evidence", and no evidence will be given to you, except the sign of Jonah (meaning his death, burial and resurrection), which will be his return.

Trying to guilt us eh. the sign of a lost argument.

[fr0d0]

Non-physical things are things like love and happiness but god is not supposed to be just a concept it is supposed to be an agent with thought processes plans and aspirations which all demand some form of physicality.

And there's evidence everywhere of stuff happening. Love is inspired and produces physical outcomes using physical transport, but still we can't observe the physical entity "love". You want to make an exception for God and observe him.

[The Grand Nudger]

Defending an assertion with yet more assertions. How many turtles would you like us to consider this morning?

[downbeatplumb]

Non-physical things are things like love and happiness but god is not supposed to be just a concept it is supposed to be an agent with thought processes plans and aspirations which all demand some form of physicality.

And there's evidence everywhere of stuff happening. Love is inspired and produces physical outcomes using physical transport, but still we can't observe the physical entity "love". You want to make an exception for God and observe him.

Love is an emotion and will produce repeatable and observable patterns in the brain that can be observed.

It will also produce certain changes in hormone levels and other physical reactions as well as responses to actions in the world that display affection.

I give my wife flowers, I kiss her and care for her. By my actions I at least imply love.

What does god do?

Nothing that can be detected and it's adherents point to easily explained phenomena and try to shoehorn in their god.

"If god weren't real would people be ready to kill themselves for it?"
"God helped my team win the final"
"God gave me this talent" (this is one americans use a lot)
"God moved me to be compassionate"

Can you point to anything that couldn't have a non-god answer?

The sad part is that you cling to your belief that no evidence is still sufficient evidence for anything at all.

[fr0d0]

Love from God is an observable emotion too. What is the difference??

Where does anything you've said mean that God should be detectable? Just like love, we can only detect the result.

Thing is, there's no need to cling to evidence. I don't. At the point where I can know that it can't be conclusive either way, I can move on to logical probabilities, and coherent propositions. I can't know physically but I can rationalise possibilities. I'm happy to say that I don't know. You're not happy with that... you have to say that this ends the subject... and that's your illogical step. Not mine.

[The Grand Nudger]

Thing is, there's no need to cling to evidence. I don't.

No shit.

At the point where I can know that it can't be conclusive either way, I can move on to logical probabilities, and coherent propositions.

Statements than can only refer to the physical as a system derived to mirror the behavior of the physical. Logical operations are not magical incantations. What is logically true or possible is only so by virtue of our physical world behaving in the manner that it appears to behave. There is no other -undefined- to which logic can refer, no other thing upon which the system could have been or was built upon. You don't get to borrow the language unless you want to play by the rules.

Try, "I move on to faithing things with my faith system" - which is also, amusingly, physical.

I can't know physically but I can rationalise possibilities.

Only useful when those variables are defined in a concrete manner....see above.

[Huggy Bear]

Not true.

The world around us is non-physical, we only perceive it to be physical through the aid of our five senses.

This is utter bollocks. We use our senses to detect the physical world.

Read again, that's exactly what I said.

When it comes to spiritual matters, faith is the "sixth" sense, meaning, the only way of detecting God is through faith. Which is why the Bible says "Without faith it is impossible to please God"

So in order to believe you must first believe. Yep sounds like something a brainwashed sheep would say.

No, in order to contact God, you must first believe.

Hebrews 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Now, take a person that can't see, hear, feel, taste, or smell, and try to prove the existence of the "physical world", it would be impossible. Likewise is trying to prove God to someone without faith.

Firstly how are you supposed to communicate to someone with no senses?

You can't,
The same way you can't communicate the concept of God to someone who doesn't have the capacity to believe.

But setting that aside.

The difference is we know that sound, objects, flavour exist and because they all have interactions with the real world and we can explain this, even if we have to break them down to the relevant mathematical formulas and teaching the maths.
These things exist we have the science and the maths to support it.
so if it is at all possible to communicate and the person is intelligent there is a way.

No, those things exist for YOU because you have the senses to detect them, without the senses they don't exist (for you personally). Likewise without the sense to contact God, he doesn't exist (for you personally).

This is the "wicked and adulterous generation" he's referring to and you all (generally speaking) are looking for "evidence", and no evidence will be given to you, except the sign of Jonah (meaning his death, burial and resurrection), which will be his return.

Trying to guilt us eh. the sign of a lost argument.

Nope, just quoting what the bible says about people looking for evidence. It's a personal problem of it makes you feel guilty