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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 2:02 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 2:04 pm by Whateverist.)
Is free will an absolute and necessary category? Or is it an idea that evolved in the context of human affairs? I'm told, but don't care enough to check for myself, that it evolved in the course of Christian debates. If so, it would be interesting to know if it has also occurred in societies dominated by other religious paradigms.
It is at least an idea that depends on the ordinary idea of free choice versus constrained choice. It then gets distorted to be mean something like can you choose what it is you choose. But with that we've left the sure ground of common speech for something contrived and strange. We've moved from a context that makes sense to one that might not.
Must I provide evidence that my unconstrained choice wasn't inevitable? Fortunately not, since there isn't any way to do that. The ordinary sense of free will as unconstrained choice which even a child can understand is not invalidated by our failure to prove that our preferences are not preordained. I actually fancy that my choices are more or less predictable as they reflect the life history and experience of one particular self, my own. And I don't accept that the self which I am is something imposed upon me, whether or not I can give any evidence for that position.
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 2:40 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 2:42 pm by Alex K.)
(January 17, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -except that QM is probabalistic, not "random". Isn't actually all that relevant to the discussion, since we're talking about creatures of a particular size at a particular level of interaction that is decidely -not- best modeled by reference to QM. Whatevers happening "down there" the picture is different "up here".
The minute someone says "but QM" I check out, bullshittery will follow. No offense, truly.
Trust me, I'm pretty down to earth when it comes to reality claims concerning QM. Of course I am deeply offended and consider blowing up something to avenge the quantum prophet.
But could you elaborate on your definitions of random and probabilistic and the difference between the two as applied to the problem at hand? I merely wanted to say that as far as we can observe, outcomes are not determined by the variables of the system currently known to us. That's absolute mainstream opinion. My shorthand: "apparently random". If that was not precise enough be my guest to introduce better terminology. But do you disagree with the statment itself?
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 3:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Random" in our everyday use of the term implies that any outcome is equally possible - that between two outcomes, it's 50/50 (so on and so forth). This is not at all what we see in QM. What we see instead, is that with a sufficient number QM experiments a range of probability arises. If you repeat the experiment again the same number of times the same range of probabilities will arise (if they didn't, we'd have no QM..it would be a big fat undefined from the floor up), where did all the randomness go? QM, at present, doesn't offer us any evidence either way when it comes to whether or not "the universe", at that level of interaction is just "random"......but that doesn't matter much in the context of a discussion about human beings...because up here, at this level, shit is demonstrably non-random...even if things are "truly" rather than "apparently" random..down there.
It's not your term (apparent randomness) that I disagree with at all, just cautioning against losing the subtlety of what it means -within QM- and what that doesn't mean with regards to us, or anything at our level of interaction. We'll exhaust my knowledge of the subject extremely quick...but I've never needed to know a whole lot to diffuse most "but QM" statements.
(also, durka durka...copenhagen jihad!)
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 3:51 pm
just to mess with your heads: What if free will is an emergent property of complexity in a deterministic universe?
Oh, yeah, ba- boom! Word salad FTW, baby!
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm
That depends. What is your definition of free will?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 5:49 pm by Alex K.)
(January 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "Random" in our everyday use of the term implies that any outcome is equally possible - that between two outcomes, it's 50/50 (so on and so forth). This is not at all what we see in QM. What we see instead, is that with a sufficient number QM experiments a range of probability arises. If you repeat the experiment again the same number of times the same range of probabilities will arise (if they didn't, we'd have no QM..it would be a big fat undefined from the floor up), where did all the randomness go? QM, at present, doesn't offer us any evidence either way when it comes to whether or not "the universe", at that level of interaction is just "random"......but that doesn't matter much in the context of a discussion about human beings...because up here, at this level, shit is demonstrably non-random...even if things are "truly" rather than "apparently" random..down there.
It's not your term (apparent randomness) that I disagree with at all, just cautioning against losing the subtlety of what it means -within QM- and what that doesn't mean with regards to us, or anything at our level of interaction. We'll exhaust my knowledge of the subject extremely quick...but I've never needed to know a whole lot to diffuse most "but QM" statements.
(also, durka durka...copenhagen jihad!)
Ok I didn't mean that all probabilities are 50/50, that wouldn't make sense.
I disagree though that this probabilistic nature of small scale stuff becomes irrelevant at macroscopic scales as it averages out. Chaotic systems blow up arbitrarily small perturbations exponentially until the whole thing goes in a completely different direction.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 8:11 pm
I strongly suspect (but cannot prove) that it is impossible to determine if free will exists at all. Suppose I have before me an orange and an apple. I reach out and take the apple. It may feel like a choice, but how can I possibly tell if that action is deterministic or not? It may very well be the case that every action I make - what to eat, which job to take, whom to marry - is the result of the unfolding of the universe and is as immutable as celestial mechanics. Conversely, it is perfectly plausible that all choices are exactly that - free and unencumbered due to some random forces of which we know nothing.
*shrug* Delusion or not, I feel like I have free will.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 8:36 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Alex K Wrote: That depends. What is your definition of free will?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 8:45 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Alex K Wrote: That depends. What is your definition of free will?
the ability to act in non-predictable ways.
By which I mean that a theoretical infinitely-powerful computer, given full and accurate knowledge of the entire Universe and the ability to predict any future event based on total knowledge of all past events would still not be able to predict your actions.
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RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
January 17, 2015 at 8:50 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 8:51 pm by Alex K.)
(January 17, 2015 at 8:45 pm)Davka Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Alex K Wrote: That depends. What is your definition of free will?
the ability to act in non-predictable ways.
By which I mean that a theoretical infinitely-powerful computer, given full and accurate knowledge of the entire Universe and the ability to predict any future event based on total knowledge of all past events would still not be able to predict your actions.
Hm, I don't find that entirely satisfactory, but if we run with it, determinism automatically precludes free will, and lack of determinism produces it. It becomes almost the same thing.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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