What do believers say when you ask or tell them..

[TimeDivider]

it seems like some people have a need to believe in something.

A fact which has led to the success of demagogues and con artists throughout our sad history.

Too true sir, too true.

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I agree with you TD that your friends attitude is unhealthy, and well, contradictory. I can't believe people can deliberately blind themselves so severely. To me it seems like ambition takes them over and they stop seeing reason.

I was wonder who it was that decided science was the opposite of religion. I think it was the worst idea of all time, and created so much misunderstanding for so many people who were not equiped with enough scientific knowledge to know any better. That is why you have Christians that accept young earth creationism, and have a generally negative view of the scientific community, when it never had to be that way. It is definately a 'bummer'.

[downbeatplumb]

Evolution is interesting, sure. It seems like secular people might sometimes get a kind of Einstein/Darwin tunnel vision. Evolution is not a theory that contradicts faith, unless you decide to have a faith that itslef contradicts evolution. But evolution is not two things. It is not on purpose, in the sense that it is a side effect of time and change, of mutation and survival. In a world with time there needs to be change. If that change can include the genetic structure of things, than there will inevitably be positive and negative growth. Evolution is fantastic, but it is also very limited. Evolution is also not a complete answer. How did we get here? Evolution? Not fully. Evolution, survival of the fittest, random chance, cannot explain many things. The older examples are eyes and flagellan motors, bot apt. But I prefer bigger pieces of the puzzle. How does random natural selection make things that have many interrelated parts that have no overall function until the mechanism is complete? How does nature evolve amino acids and proteins, when you need aa's to make proteins, and proteins to make aa's. How did random chance evolve the genetic structure? When we got a grasp on the coding of life the argument for intelligent design got a lot more plausible. The machine that is DNA/RNA is miraculous in it's construction and function. So I don't disbelieve evolution, but I think it has more to do with beaks of finches in Galapagos than it does the philosophical queries of the origins of life.

Firstly natural selection is not random it is a process of weeding carried out by nature (pradators, environment and food sources),whereby the most 'fitted survive and the least fitted' perish.

Secondly still on about the eye, the eye has a great many fazes of developement, from patches of cells all the way to the full eye read any good book on the subject and you'll see examples.

DNA and RNA is harder to explain but you know what, the chances of it being some god or others artificial construct is so close to zero as to not seriously be considered.

You are arguing a typical god of the gaps assertion here, just coz we dont know does not mean god did it.

[Minimalist]

just coz we dont know does not mean god did it.

Precisely.

[Watson]

1. What happens if the religion you're believing in is wrong? Since there are more than the one God you're believing in. Don't you think it's a waste of time praying when you have no idea what might be the truth?

I believe in the God of the Christian Bible because the Bible seems to me to be the most broad and inclusive ofall holy books/text, but others are not without merit. They are all trying to explain the same thing, but some can be warped more by human perception than can others.

2. Don't you think heaven would be extremely boring after 5 billion years of being there, and still having forever left? It may be paradise but everything gets boring in the long run.

Not by the definition of Heaven which I have come to understand. It is a state of mind, so to say it is paradise is accurate and misleading all at once; sadness, anger, longing, desire, etc., etc. can still exist within it, and thus it does not get 'boring'- anymore than your life now gets broing for you.

3. Who created God?

*le sigh* No one created God, God is eternal and expansive. But I've been reubked on this before, s o idon't expect you to really 'get it.' No offense.

4. Why does God let bad things happen to good people?

Sometimes these things need t ohappen to further the world along it's path, change it in such a way as to move closer to the end goal. Life never remains the same, life never stays stagnant- everything is in a constant state of change, all of life is. Change as we know it is turmoilous, so bad things sometimes occur to reach the ultimate endpoint.

5. The reason you don't commit horrible crimes, is it because you're afraid to be smited by God or because you think it's morally wrong?

I believe it's morally wrong, not only because it hurts others and damages them, but because it is unhealthy to myself and my soul, as well. When I do bad things, there's always that underlying thought of "Wow, that was really bad" that never goes away. It hurts, and the only way of getting around that is forgiving yourself for it. But, I'd rather cut down on that pain than pile it up and just say "Oh it's okay, I forgive myself!"

[downbeatplumb]

4. Why does God let bad things happen to good people?

Sometimes these things need t ohappen to further the world along it's path, change it in such a way as to move closer to the end goal. Life never remains the same, life never stays stagnant- everything is in a constant state of change, all of life is. Change as we know it is turmoilous, so bad things sometimes occur to reach the ultimate endpoint.

So whatever happens 'its for the overall good' and 'god knows best' eh.
You have no proof of this horrible assertion and just expunge your god of any possible guilt, 'just like that' clicks fingers.
This is perhaps the most reprehensible argument used by theists the most weasily the most shit brained the most.....
I am not a fan of this line of 'reasoning'.
I killed your baby but it was for the best said god, I killed 250,000 people with a big wave but it was for the best said god......

Good grief

[Minimalist]

So whatever happens 'its for the overall good' and 'god knows best' eh.

Insh' Allah as the muslims say....which they use as an excuse to blow themselves up.

[Soyouz]

@ Watson

"*le sigh* No one created God, God is eternal and expansive. But I've been reubked on this before, s o idon't expect you to really 'get it.' No offense."

If no one created God, why can't we say no one created the world?


Why do we need to make up an explanation for things we can't understand? In the past when religion started, I think it's understandable to believe in a higher force because no one knew of anything else. There were no other theories.

In my opinion it started like this and was used as a power abuse, "oh no it's been raining way too much the harvest is ruined, why does this always happen to me? =(" said the peasent. Priest comes by and says: Hmm, this is the devils work if you start worshiping your lord and pay your taxes to the church then this evil will all go away! And with the lack of knowledge the peasent agrees. He does what the priest said.. if his harvest gets ruined again he hasn't been praying or paying enough. If it goes well he has been praying and paying his taxes enough.


downbeatplumb = God?

[Minimalist]

But I've been reubked on this before

With good reason.

[Autumnlicious]

If no one created God, why can't we say no one created the world?

QFT.

[tackattack]

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I would by default in all probability think that any "feel good" feelings that come from prayer is indeed down to the placebo effect. I know of no evidence of anything more than that.

@ Tackattack

Where does the selfless part come in in this feeling good when prayers being answered (whether answered how you want or not).

P.S: Sorry about my last PM's mess, I had to go out all of a sudden and I was in a confused mood so I guess I didn't think to save it as a draft and finish it later (maybe I was worried I'd forget if I did that... I dunno).

EvF

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I had to mail you beacuase your PM box was full that's all.. as to your question:
selflessness is all about intent. You can really take a narrow view and say you're praying to feel good, because it historically has felt good to pray, but that leads in a circle. If you pray to get joy or happiness then your intent is for a selfish goal.If you pray for someone elses joy or happiness then your intent is not based off self. If you are praying for someone else becuase it makes you feel good to help someone, then your intent is selfish.

If no one created God, why can't we say no one created the world?

QFT.

Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe.