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13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
#1
13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
We atheists think we're right about the god hypothesis, and in our defense I'd say it's embarrassing to be always right on the same subject. Regardless, not everything we say is necessarily right, accurate or valid; and because I want atheists to grow as a demographic, I've decided to make list of arguments or factual statements that atheists should stop using. For the record, some of them are actually true and can be said in some circumstances, but when it comes to the debate about god's hypothetical existence none of the following proves that god doesn't exist or that atheism is logically correct:

1 - A high percentage of scientists don't believe in god ---> This is an appeal to authority, and it's not any better than the theist argument of Most people in the world believe in god, therefore god exists. Independently of what scientists think, atheism is not composed solely by scientists and just because scientists say so it doesn't mean they are right or that atheism should have a gigantic boost in credibility, since the average atheist is not a copy of Dawkins. This applies to appeals made to any scientist, famous or not. [It's true that most scientists believe in god, it's a fact, it has been surveyed - But this doesn't prove atheism is right; just like if most scientists believed in god it wouldn't prove god exists]


2 - Atheists are more educated and intelligent ---> This is also a fact, it's perfectly ok to say that the average atheist is more likely to be proportionally more educated and smart, however being smarter doesn't prove atheists are right, being smarter doesn't prove you have more credibility, and not every atheist is necessarily very educated and intelligent, just like not every theist is uneducated and close minded. I don't like when we put intelligence on such a high pedestal because it creates a bigoted idea that smart people are somehow special and better than less smart people.

3 - God/religion is evil, immoral, harmful and bad because of (insert a verse from the holy book, a bad action practised by a religious person or institution like the inquisition, etc.) ---> The reasons we should dismiss and criticize religion are many, but religion or god are not wrong/false/don't exist just because they are evil and bad. This is, at most, a reason to be against god and religion, but as far as I know, god could exist and be an evil being. I think this is a truthful statement, but it's not an argument to prove atheism is a better option than theism

4 - Assuming reasons why theists believe beforehand (You were just indoctrinated by society/parents/family, you are afraid of death, you really want god to exist, you are a wishful thinker, etc.) ---> Making assumptions about why people believe is wrong and lumps them all into the same category. It's true that some people believe their parents' religion, but there are new born religious people, people who are raised as atheists and end up believing. The way you end up believing or not believing something shouldn't be the reason why it's wrong or right. I'm not denying indoctrination plays a part (most likely a bigger one), but it's not the reason why god or religion are a false hypothesis. Just like theists, atheists could, trough some methods, persuade their children from birth to reject completely the god idea and dislike people who believe in god - But it wouldn't make atheism less plausible. By the way, I think it's ok to point out any of these after we have directly observed that the theist/s we're arguing with matches the description (for example if the theist says he believes in god because otherwise death seems like a terrible scenario - That's wishful thinking)

5 - Babies are born atheists ---> This is a no brainer, babies are born without a god concept in mind, but are also born without many abilities and realities that are latter taught in life, like morality - Babies are atheists but are also amoral, apolitical, etc. The truth is, a baby is born without capacities to take a stance on the god question, but that doesn't mean god doesn't exist and atheism is right. Logically, just like cats and dogs, babies are technically atheists, but it's irrelevant to the point; it's not the reason atheism is the most rational position

6 - Your religion is immoral according to my subjective morality ---> Attacking the morality of a religion, no matter how much you disagree with it, is not proof that god doesn't exist and that religion is false. I'm individualizing this "argument" from number 3 because there's a higher tendency for atheists to play the "religion is immoral" card - It's not a false statement, I'll say it myself that most religions are highly immoral according to my subjective morality, but that doesn't make atheism more reasonable taking into account that it is more about the lack of probability of god existing rather than morality itself.

7 - Everyone is an atheist to most gods, some of us take it one step further ---> This is not really an argument in the first place, but it's a little meaningless since it equates atheism with theism, as if not believing in other gods makes theists very similar to atheists. The truth is, theists believe in at least a god and atheists don't. It is true that theists are atheists to gods they don't believe in, but saying that "theists are atheists" is a contradictory statement because atheist requires lack of belief in any gods.

8 - You are just delusional, dumb, stupid, blind, indoctrinated, close minded, etc. (personal attacks) ---> Any kind of personal attack is not evidence that god doesn't exist. It your only desire is to mock a theist then these insults are perfectly ok, but in a serious debate it's not a reliable option and it doesn't give atheists more credibility to nickname theists as "delusional" and other insults that make the theist proposition seem less reliable.

9 - Lumping believers into the same bag by any reason at all and using it to strengthen an atheist argument---> (examples - Christians are really irrational so it's really obvious that you'll never forget your fairytale and come down to earth to realize god doesn't exist/You are so delusional that you cannot see how stupid your beliefs are). This is not even an individualized argument and it also relies on false assumptions and personal insults. It's easy to use this premise as a form of deliberately discrediting all theists but it's not logically consistent.

10 - Equating atheism with success, happiness, less suicide or healthier lifestyles, regarding individuals and nations ---> None of this proves religion or god don't exist. It's a verifiable fact and it's usually consistent, but it's irrelevant to dismiss the god hypothesis. I'm pretty sure if the number of Christians were rising, or if atheists happened to have worse lifestyles, we wouldn't like Christians using the exact same argument for Christianity

11 - Any argument that presumes the world is split between religious fundamentalists and atheists, giving atheists the victory ---> There are a lot of people who are not fundamentalist; some are moderates, others are liberal, some people are merely agnostics, others are deists, others are pantheists; it's really bad to create a dichotomy between two extremes to make you seem right. I don't like the "No true scotsman" fallacy, and this goes both ways (example - It's not valid to say Christians are only the bible literalists and use the premise to make Christianity seem less valid)

12 - Assuming all theists are irrational and all atheists are rational ---> Regardless of our opinion on atheists being right, there are believers that rationalize their behaviour and beliefs decently and bring some not so bad arguments (still fallacious, but I won't deny the argument from incredulity or the argument of cosmology is a lot less annoying than the argument of It is in the bible, it is true) and there are atheists who don't believe in god but lack critical thinking when it comes to discuss anything else (what other reason is there for homophobic, white nationalist or conservative/republican atheists?) - Indeed, I've met atheists who are complete assholes

13 - Calling religion a mental illness ---> While this is debatable, it's usually thrown as a form of discrediting religious theists and doesn't contribute to a rational, reasonable debate. It's also not enough to prove why the god hypothesis or a specific religion is unreliable. Not to mention I have my doubts that belief is a mental condition - But that's something we should discuss in another thread

Final notes:
- The order of the arguments is numbered because it's an old habit of mine, but it's not meant to signify decreasing or increasing importance; it's completely random
- I am not saying any of you use these arguments frequently or at all, but I've personally witnessed all these statements and some variations coming from the mouths of atheists
- A considerable part of what I've written is true and there's surveys, studies and statistics backing it up - It doesn't mean we can't say any of these things; but when we are debating theists about god's existence we shouldn't rely on cheap tricks. This is only valid when it comes to the debate about the god hypothesis, for anything else we are free to spit it all out.
--> The reasons for me to make a topic about any of this is because I think atheists are better, are right, are more rational and shouldn't rely on low blows (I don't mean better as a "better person", I mean better in the sense that we have a more elaborated and concise position regarding the god hypothesis)
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#2
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
For the most part I agree with you, but I have a small caveat with number seven. If the argument is restructured to "I don't believe in your god for the same reason you don't believe in every other one", it still encompasses the same idea, but is also more or less correct. I do think that it is a stretch to say that theists are 'atheists' to gods other than their own, but I agree with the basic idea that the argument is trying to put forward. Theists dismiss other gods, but generally do not apply the same level of skepticism to their own religion.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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#3
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
I notice the same recurring theme. "The argument is not evidence that god does not exist"

True enough, but the argument is still evidence of how ignorant theists are. Many of the above arguments I do not use in favor of proving god does not exist, for no argument is truly needed in such a case.. I use the arguments to show how dumb the theist is.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#4
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
I don't have to prove that god ( any god) doesn't exist. It is up to the shitheads to prove that their beliefs are valid.
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#5
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
There isn't anything in that list that stands out that I would disagree with. I especially advise atheists to never go with the we are smarter angle. Aside from not always being true it just tends to piss people off. Then they'll close up to you and block out any of your arguments. It's kind of the same way we react when theists make the claim that they are moral than us.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#6
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(January 31, 2015 at 10:14 pm)Sionnach Wrote: I notice the same recurring theme. "The argument is not evidence that god does not exist"

True enough, but the argument is still evidence of how ignorant theists are. Many of the above arguments I do not use in favor of proving god does not exist, for no argument is truly needed in such a case.. I use the arguments to show how dumb the theist is.

It depends - Being smarter or more educated is not proof that you are better or more likely to be correct, more scientists being atheists is not proof that atheism is right, etc - I'm saying that if we want to prove god doesn't exist or that god is less likely to exist those arguments are not correct. If we are the ones saying "atheists are right because of X reasons" we should come up with good reasons (and there are a lot) If you just want to insult theists, then it's fine to call them delusional or dumb, etc, it's actually kinda fun. My point is that atheists sometimes use those arguments to discredit theists, but it's not valid OR necessary - Theism can be dismissed with rational argument

Quote:I don't have to prove that god ( any god) doesn't exist. It is up to the shitheads to prove that their beliefs are valid.
No, but if you make the claim that "atheism is more rational" or that "god most likely doesn't exist" the burden of proof shifts to you - We atheists do that all the time and when that happens it's up to us to tell theists why atheists are right - And don't even dare saying it's not necessary - It's extremely easy to name 10 reasons why atheists are right and theists are not.

Quote:There isn't anything in that list that stands out that I would disagree with. I especially advise atheists to never go with the we are smarter angle. Aside from not always being true it just tends to piss people off. Then they'll close up to you and block out any of your arguments. It's kind of the same way we react when theists make the claim that they are moral than us.
Yeah I agree - My reasoning is that it's a good way to piss off theists, but it's not useful to prove one's point, and I don't think we should create the idea that intelligent people are objectively superior - I don't want to go down that path (we could as well bring races, for example, and say asian score higher on IQ tests and therefore asians are right)
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#7
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(January 31, 2015 at 10:35 pm)Blackout Wrote: It depends - Being smarter or more educated is not proof that you are better or more likely to be correct, more scientists being atheists is not proof that atheism is right, etc - I'm saying that if we want to prove god doesn't exist or that god is less likely to exist those arguments are not correct. If we are the ones saying "atheists are right because of X reasons" we should come up with good reasons (and there are a lot) If you just want to insult theists, then it's fine to call them delusional or dumb, etc, it's actually kinda fun. My point is that atheists sometimes use those arguments to discredit theists, but it's not valid OR necessary - Theism can be dismissed with rational argument

I do not argue for positional superiority. I do not have an ego that needs to be satisfied by a theist admitting I am correct.

My only reason for arguing against theists is to insult them for the nitwits they are, expose their ignorance for exactly what it is.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#8
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
I like doing the same, but you're less likely to be successful if you insult them constantly. I think de-conversion increases it's probability when you truly expose the logic of theism V. atheism and show how atheists are correct. Personally, I've de-converted a few people using rational argument, but I avoided insults because I know it makes people less likely to pay attention or appreciate my attempt. This is just a piece of advice according to my experiences, if your only purpose is bashing and insulting, then go ahead. It can be fun.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#9
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(January 31, 2015 at 9:42 pm)Blackout Wrote:

I want atheists to grow as a demographic, I've decided to make list of arguments or factual statements that atheists should stop using. For the record, some of them are actually true and can be said in some circumstances, but when it comes to the debate about god's hypothetical existence none of the following proves that god doesn't exist or that atheism is logically correct:

A high percentage of scientists don't believe in god] ---> This is an appeal to authority,

Agreed.

2 - Atheists are more educated and intelligent[---> This is also a fact, it's perfectly ok to say that the average atheist is more likely to be proportionally more educated and smart, however being smarter doesn't prove atheists are right, being smarter doesn't prove you have more credibility,

Agreed

3 - God/religion is evil, immoral, harmful and bad because of (insert a verse from the holy book, a bad action practised by a religious person or institution like the inquisition, etc.)---> The reasons we should dismiss and criticize religion are many, but religion or god are not wrong/false/don't exist just because they are evil and bad. This is, at most, a reason to be against god and religion, but as far as I know, god could exist and be an evil being. I think this is a truthful statement, but it's not an argument to prove atheism is a better option than theism

This one is more interesting. That religion is or isn't evil has no relevance to whether any god at all exists. It is however, highly relevant to whether a perfect, omnipotent, or loving god exists and whether that god is depicted in a particular holy book.

It is also relevant to whether it is a good idea to take a leap of faith and believe in god without evidence.

4 - Assuming reasons why theists believe beforehand (You were just indoctrinated by society/parents/family, you are afraid of death, you really want god to exist, you are a wishful thinker, etc.)---> Making assumptions about why people believe is wrong and lumps them all into the same category. It's true that some people believe their parents' religion, but there are new born religious people, people who are raised as atheists and end up believing. The way you end up believing or not believing something shouldn't be the reason why it's wrong or right.

As an argument that god doesn't exist I agree it's fallacious. As a reason to give people as to why they should reexamine their beliefs, it is not. But yes it's important to figure out why the particular person believes first.

5 - Babies are born atheists ---> This is a no brainer, babies are born without a god concept in mind, but are also born without many abilities and realities that are latter taught in life, like morality - Babies are atheists but are also amoral, apolitical, etc. The truth is, a baby is born without capacities to take a stance on the god question, but that doesn't mean god doesn't exist and atheism is right. Logically, just like cats and dogs, babies are technically atheists, but it's irrelevant to the point; it's not the reason atheism is the most rational position

Again this one isn't cut and dried for me. That babies don't believe in god is not proof there isn't one. But, it is relevant to the "you know you believe, everyone really secretly does," theist crap.

6 - Your religion is immoral according to my subjective morality ---> Attacking the morality of a religion, no matter how much you disagree with it, is not proof that god doesn't exist and that religion is false. I'm individualizing this "argument" from number 3 because there's a higher tendency for atheists to play the "religion is immoral" card - It's not a false statement, I'll say it myself that most religions are highly immoral according to my subjective morality, but that doesn't make atheism more reasonable taking into account that it is more about the lack of probability of god existing rather than morality itself.


Again this isn't an argument that god doesn't exist, merely an argument that it makes no moral or ethical sense to pretend or "have faith" that he does.

7 - Everyone is an atheist to most gods, some of us take it one step further

Sorry, but I like this one a lot. But, it is not so much an argument as a method to get theists to look at their own belief structure. If the evidence is no better for Yahweh then for Zeus, then there is nothing to choose from between Yahweh and Zeus.


8 - You are just delusional, dumb, stupid, blind, indoctrinated, close minded, etc. (personal attacks)

Yeah, you're right. But sometimes it feels so good to say it. Tongue

9 - Lumping believers into the same bag by any reason at all and using it to strengthen an atheist argument

Agreed.

10 - Equating atheism with success, happiness, less suicide or healthier lifestyles, regarding individuals and nations

Again, not an argument that god doesn't exist, but a perfectly good counter that the existence of god can be demonstrated by the behavior or wealth of Christians.

11 - Any argument that presumes the world is split between religious fundamentalists and atheists, giving atheists the victory

Not an argument that god doesn't exist, but a very good reason for not giving great respect to religion, just because it is religion.

12 - Assuming all theists are irrational and all atheists are rational

Not an assumption on the issue of faith. It's definitional. But, no it's counterproductive in discussion.

13 - Calling religion a mental illness

Ditto.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#10
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Jenny hit my only real objection, for #3, and I agree with her point about it.

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