Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 2:12 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Deliberate use of fallacy
#21
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 8, 2015 at 7:03 am)abaris Wrote:
(March 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Is it right to deliberately use fallacy in rhetoric if one thinks it will get a point accepted?

If you need fallacies to bring a point across, you haven't got a point to begin with.

If this were true , stand up comedy would not exist. Geniuses such as George Carlin have always been able to convey brilliance and poignancy all the while wrapping it in pure farce and silliness for the sake of making uncomfortable subject matter palatable to all audiences.

Doc
Reply
#22
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 8, 2015 at 7:32 am)Wychdoctyr Wrote: If this were true , stand up comedy would not exist.

Comedy nad satire is a totally different pair of shoes.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
Reply
#23
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 8, 2015 at 7:03 am)abaris Wrote:
(March 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Is it right to deliberately use fallacy in rhetoric if one thinks it will get a point accepted?

If you need fallacies to bring a point across, you haven't got a point to begin with. It's a different matter if you tailor your arguments to suit a particular audience. That can be achieved without outright lying, which fallacies are all about, if we're honest.
I guess it depends if you want to "win" logically, or actually manipulate the other person's ideas. I think to get someone to change something at their core, you're going to have to create a crack in the egg somehow-- and ideas almost never seem to do that. Either you have to completely mystify them, or they have to hit a crisis point. I suppose the death of a loved one would be the most common reason for people to leave-- or to join, for that matter-- a religious ideology. But perhaps a simulated crisis, via a very imaginative appeal to emotion, could have a similar effect?
Reply
#24
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 8, 2015 at 7:36 am)abaris Wrote:
(March 8, 2015 at 7:32 am)Wychdoctyr Wrote: If this were true , stand up comedy would not exist.

Comedy nad satire is a totally different pair of shoes.

With Carlin's comedy, it was a sort of argument -- an argument for his particular worldview.

Reply
#25
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 7, 2015 at 11:49 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(March 7, 2015 at 10:52 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think 'gun deaths' is a type of logical fallacy. A death is a death regardless of the means.

That's silly. In trying to eliminate or minimize needless deaths, you have to categorize the cause of death. It's not like if the family of some kid who shot himself in the face didn't have a gun, he would have slipped in the shower instead-- at least not at that moment. He would have been reading comic books or jerking off or something.

The problem with what you're saying is that everyone thinks the statistics are "those other guys." Then they're surprised when it turns out that they aren't special God-favored snowflakes, and their kid's face is as susceptible to bullets as those of all those "just numbers" they thought didn't apply to them. You know what? I think you don't care about any of those kids, or their families. You'd rather hold some goofy idea about statistics, which no sensible person can believe in, than take real steps to protect little Johnny here:
[Image: 10-Super-Cute-Hairstyles-For-Boys-Wispy-William.jpg]
I, for one, think this boy's life is valuable enough to justifying trying to keep it from being blown all over the wall of his parents' closet.

Appeal to emotion anyone? Are you deliberately using fallacies on me as a test case?
[Image: dcep7c.jpg]
Reply
#26
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 8, 2015 at 11:54 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: Appeal to emotion anyone? Are you deliberately using fallacies on me as a test case?

Smile

(March 8, 2015 at 10:56 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:
(March 8, 2015 at 7:36 am)abaris Wrote: Comedy nad satire is a totally different pair of shoes.

With Carlin's comedy, it was a sort of argument -- an argument for his particular worldview.

I think all comedy is like this-- it throws into the light of absurdity one world view, and implies another better one.
Reply
#27
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
Random thought, I wonder if other forms of reasoning besides argumentative reasoning are important and should not be neglected. Like reasoning that isn't straight up deduction or induction.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
#28
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 9, 2015 at 12:14 am)Pizz-atheist Wrote: Random thought, I wonder if other forms of reasoning besides argumentative reasoning are important and should not be neglected. Like reasoning that isn't straight up deduction or induction.

Like what?
Reply
#29
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
(March 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Is it right to deliberately use fallacy in rhetoric if one thinks it will get a point accepted?

For example, if I know Republicans won't "get" logical arguments-- statistics on gun deaths, for example-- is it right to use appeals to emotion, appeals to authority, and argumentum ad populum? Or does this introduce a kind of Achilles heel-- you'll plow through the masses, and then end up getting embarrassed when you eventually come across a decent debater? Or, on the other hand, will you end up so wrapped up in the web of bullshit that you are spinning, that you will ending degrading your own intellect?

It occurs to me that the Fox News people, for example, may actually be highly intelligent. They may know their crowd, and may be manipulating that crowd in a measured and deliberate way.
First, I don't think the success that Fox News has in manipulating the conversation should inspire much enthusiasm for any debating tactic, since their approach to what can only be called overt propaganda is to minimize legitimate debate. Second, I don't really think, as a rule of thumb, the goal of any debate should simply be to win an argument, or even to persuade the opponent. In my view, of equal importance, is not only the triumph of truth but the actual process of how one arrived there. I don't want people to agree with me just for the sake of agreement or common cause, I want people to understand how to assess their own positions in the context of logic and evidence.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
Reply
#30
RE: Deliberate use of fallacy
If you're dealing with a debate that is going to be available on the internet, then no matter what your opponent and the live audience think about who "won" the debate, the internet viewers are the ones you should be trying to reach. So by remaining honest, you will hopefully gain credibility and respect from those viewers and ultimately change the most minds.

If that's not the case, then cheating back at the cheater is more appealing, since it will expose the fraudulent nature of the opponent to the audience, hopefully.

Not that I've ever been in any formal debates! So I'm just putting forward my opinion Smile

You know, I think I'd enjoy doing one though.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The Fallacy List Foxaèr 12 3650 May 26, 2017 at 1:17 pm
Last Post: Caligvla XXI
  On the consistent use of "objective" and "subjective" Ignorant 22 4274 November 15, 2016 at 12:01 pm
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Good Use for religion? maestroanth 12 1939 October 30, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  fallacy ref! - funny and informative drfuzzy 3 996 November 17, 2015 at 11:56 am
Last Post: robvalue
  The Existential Fallacy Pizza 6 2264 March 20, 2015 at 5:39 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  The naturalistic fallacy and masturbation Clueless Morgan 22 3611 October 31, 2014 at 3:20 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  I am coining a new fallacy - the Wiki fallacy Simon Moon 8 2512 August 10, 2014 at 9:59 am
Last Post: bennyboy
  The hovind fallacy Lemonvariable72 18 4584 October 7, 2013 at 5:49 pm
Last Post: Lemonvariable72
  Chronological Snobberry Fallacy Tea Earl Grey Hot 8 3647 August 11, 2013 at 10:32 am
Last Post: genkaus
  would you use a time machine to change your past dj-hato 34 8887 April 10, 2013 at 2:57 pm
Last Post: Violet



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)