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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 15, 2015 at 11:24 pm
(This post was last modified: March 15, 2015 at 11:28 pm by JuliaL.)
I can't believe that nobody has brought up Chthulu fhtagn and the elder gods yet.
Or the god which is blue smoke.
I don't think having an agenda is necessarily an anthropomorphism if God is so utterly other that its motivation is totally foreign to us humans.
Just between us, I expect that humanities first contact with alien intelligences will be a visit by proselytizing reptilians who want to convert us to worship a god which looks pretty much like they do. Not anthropomorphic at all.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 15, 2015 at 11:26 pm
(March 15, 2015 at 10:21 am)Chad32 Wrote: Yes, you could consider those. Though I was never very impressed with deism or pantheism. Probably because I grew up christian, and don't see the point of believing in a god that isn't there, or doesn't care, or is the trees and rivers and rock and such. There's no reason to worship something like that, and I won't be rewarded or punished, so I don't see the point. Maybe the problem is your assuming the Christian claim that whatever God is, it must be worthy of worship. But why assume that? Also the point isn't whether or not you should care, it is whether or not a god exists.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 15, 2015 at 11:33 pm
How would being a deist or pantheist effect your life? What would you expect me to do differently with my life if I converted from atheism to either of those? If the answer is nothing, then what's the point of it?
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 12:24 am
(March 15, 2015 at 11:04 pm)remagination Wrote: (March 15, 2015 at 10:25 am)Nestor Wrote: Strip God of the anthropomorphism and you're left with a totally inconsequential metaphysical monster defined by nothing but the negation of boundaries... and then suddenly it begins to look suspiciously non-existent. Not necessarily.
For example --- if one sees God as being whatever is all-powerful --- and then determines that the laws of physics are all-powerful --- then would the Laws of Physics not be that person's non-anthropomorphic God? No. If we use the term God honestly we know everyone means "Intellect" or "Person."
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 12:41 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2015 at 12:55 am by Pizza.)
(March 15, 2015 at 11:33 pm)Chad32 Wrote: How would being a deist or pantheist effect your life? What would you expect me to do differently with my life if I converted from atheism to either of those? If the answer is nothing, then what's the point of it? That isn't the point at issue. It would be like rejecting highly technical scientific theories on the basis that they don't effect your life.
@Nestor, my biggest gripe with arguments for God is that even if I grant the meaningfulness of saying an unembodied mind created the universe or blah blah, the question of the analogy this mind has to human minds(even assuming dualism) is a theological quagmire.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 12:57 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2015 at 1:02 am by Mudhammam.)
(March 16, 2015 at 12:41 am)Pizz-atheist Wrote: (March 15, 2015 at 11:33 pm)Chad32 Wrote: How would being a deist or pantheist effect your life? What would you expect me to do differently with my life if I converted from atheism to either of those? If the answer is nothing, then what's the point of it? That isn't the point at issue. It would be like rejecting highly technical scientific theories on the basis that they don't effect your life. I would say the pragmatic approach might look at it like even though a highly technical scientific theory has no direct or immediate effect on the business of one's daily affairs, the knowledge we may potentially acquire and the corresponding ignorance we may shed as a result of the theory is very much of consequence for a number of reasons we can infer. Whether or not deism or pantheism is "true" is of no consequence to anything whatsoever insofar as any type of sense data, even hypothesized phenomena suggested only for its utility as a framework for further exploration, is concerned, on the other hand.
(March 16, 2015 at 12:41 am)Pizz-atheist Wrote: @Nestor, my biggest gripe with arguments for God is that even if I grant the meaningfulness of saying an unembodied mind created the universe or blah blah, the question of the analogy this mind has to human minds(even assuming dualism) is a theological quagmire. Right. It's a metaphysical nightmare, a word salad, an entity described in terms that receive their content solely from sense and applied to a concept that its champions are first to admit is quite literally, senseless.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 1:05 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2015 at 1:19 am by Pizza.)
I agree but that only works on best explanation arguments. I believe I exist even if it doesn't really explain anything, because there can't be error without a thing to error. The problem for the theist to prove god existing is like, I think therefore I am. This is the goal of presuppositional apologists and they suck at it.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 1:15 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2015 at 1:27 am by remagination.)
(March 15, 2015 at 11:17 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Christians would define worship as who or whatever you put first in your life. They expect you to put Yahweh/Jesus first, but if you're playing video games instead of going to church you're committing idolatry towards your games. Thank you very much.
Of course --- I don't know if all Christians would give that definition of "worship" if you asked them to define it --- but I don't think many of them would disagree with that definition.
Now the question is --- is this definition specific to Christianity, to some-or-all of the Abrahamic religions --- or is it pretty much a working definition that goes across the board for non-modern religions?
(March 15, 2015 at 11:24 pm)JuliaL Wrote: I can't believe that nobody has brought up Chthulu fhtagn and the elder gods yet.
Or the god which is blue smoke. I do not know about the elder gods or the god which is blue smoke -- but C'thulu, there was no reference to anywhere prior to 1928 --- and even then, no evidence I know of of having been seen ever as anything but fictional. Therefore, if I found a definition of 'God' that fit all non-modern usages of the term, I would not reject that definition should C'thulu not fit it.
(March 15, 2015 at 11:24 pm)JuliaL Wrote: I don't think having an agenda is necessarily an anthropomorphism if God is so utterly other that its motivation is totally foreign to us humans.
Just between us, I expect that humanities first contact with alien intelligences will be a visit by proselytizing reptilians who want to convert us to worship a god which looks pretty much like they do. Not anthropomorphic at all. Having an agenda utterly ailen to our own would not be as extreme an anthropomorphisation as having an agenda similar to our own ---- but just because an anthropomorphisation isn't taken to it's farthest extreme doesn't mean that it isn't an anthropomorphisation.
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 5:35 am
I do agree that your methods wasn't very wise (false dichotomy) - But the conclusion is not wrong. The main argument used by atheists to justify not believing in god is the complete lack of evidence for deities - This applies to the deist or pantheist god as well, so that's it.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
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RE: Deism, Atheism, and False Dilemmas
March 16, 2015 at 6:12 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2015 at 6:15 pm by Pizza.)
So, guess what you saying is that atheists, even strong atheists, don't have to claim God doesn't exist period(!) but that it is rational for atheists to believe otherwise or merely abstain from belief in such.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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