The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.

[Dystopia]

Does that justify killing him?

He reached into the cop's car and started a scuffle. Did the policeman have no nonlethal alternatives?

What was wrong with pressing the accelerator and pulling away slowly? Or tasing him? Or using pepper spray? Or rolling up the window?

If Mr. Brown wasn't a piece of shit he would still be alive.

What was wrong with him not being a thieving, threatening, menace to society piece of shit?

I don't think criminal behaviour by itself justifies unnecessary shooting when it's best dealt by a court of law and a judge - I don't know enough about Ferguson to say that it was racism, but my point is that it's necessary to know if killing was necessary, and, even if it was allowed by the State's law, we need to question how moral those laws may be.

[A Theist]

Does that justify killing him?

He reached into the cop's car and started a scuffle. Did the policeman have no nonlethal alternatives?

What was wrong with pressing the accelerator and pulling away slowly? Or tasing him? Or using pepper spray? Or rolling up the window?

I would say that it's obvious enough, why. According to the DOJ report officer Wilson wasn't left with much choice. He was fighting off Brown in a struggle for control of his gun. If other options were available to Wilson I'm sure that Holder's DOJ would have prosecuted him. "Hands up. Don't shoot" was a damn lie that fueled rioting and which targeted cops for murder.

[downbeatplumb]

The "Hands up. Don't shoot", in the Michael Brown incident, has been determined by the DOJ to be "Bogus".



Johnathan Capehart: "Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie"

What DOJ found made me ill. Wilson knew about the theft of the cigarillos from the convenience store and had a description of the suspects. Brown fought with the officer and tried to take his gun. And the popular hands-up storyline, which isn’t corroborated by ballistic and DNA evidence and multiple witness statements, was perpetuated by Witness 101. In fact, just about everything said to the media by Witness 101, whom we all know as Dorian Johnson, the friend with Brown that day, was not supported by the evidence and other witness statements.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...ael-brown/

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dail...545D052FE4

[AFTT47]

It's very good that police are under the spotlight because they do need to be reigned in but this is a terrible case to rally it around. Brown was obviously off the rails that day and made a number of very bad decisions. It's still possible Wilson was in the wrong but applying the rule of innocent until proven guilty...

I haven't read through older threads about this which were posted before I joined this forum but there is one thing I noticed about this incident that I never hear mentioned: Wilson made an obvious tactical error. You have a guy who just committed a strong-arm robbery (a very brazen crime by itself) but instead of laying low, he walks down the middle of the street and tells a cop to fuck off after he simply told him to move to the sidewalk. That plus his size makes him obviously dangerous. He should have pulled his vehicle up at least 50' in front of Brown to give himself some stand-off room. If he had done that, I suspect Brown would have been arrested without incident.

[A Theist]

The "Hands up. Don't shoot", in the Michael Brown incident, has been determined by the DOJ to be "Bogus".



Johnathan Capehart: "Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie"


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...ael-brown/

Yeah, I guess if I were one of those on the left who pushed the "Hands up. Don't shoot" lie that created violent rioting and which targeted police officers for murder, I'd want to try and use whatever means I could to draw attention away from that part of the DOJ report too. The radical left, Black activists, and left leaning pundits went on a vigilante crusade to lynch officer Wilson, (for no other reason than because he was a "white" police officer" who shot a "black" suspect to death in a self defense struggle over his gun).

[Neo-Scholastic]

What is being forgotten and which the OP tacitly expresses is that American media misrepresented the facts to fit a liberal narrative and malevolent opportunists exploited the lie. Rioting against innocents and demonizing honorable professionals.

[downbeatplumb]

What is being forgotten and which the OP tacitly expresses is that American media misrepresented the facts to fit a liberal narrative and malevolent opportunists exploited the lie. Rioting against innocents and demonizing honorable professionals.

"Liberal bias" have you seen Fox a rabidly right wing organisation that distorts the truth whenever it can.

You also seem to be ignoring the report that found that there is institutional racism ingrained within the Ferguson police department that led to many incidents, any one of which could have led to the riots.

The spark may have not been what it first appeared but there was certainly a lot of tinder.

Why are American Christians are so right wing? Christians over here tend towards the left.

[A Theist]

What is being forgotten and which the OP tacitly expresses is that American media misrepresented the facts to fit a liberal narrative and malevolent opportunists exploited the lie. Rioting against innocents and demonizing honorable professionals.

"Liberal bias" have you seen Fox a rabidly right wing organisation that distorts the truth whenever it can.

You also seem to be ignoring the report that found that there is institutional racism ingrained within the Ferguson police department that led to many incidents, any one of which could have led to the riots.

The spark may have not been what it first appeared but there was certainly a lot of tinder.

Why are American Christians are so right wing? Christians over here tend towards the left.

"Liberal bias" have you seen Fox a rabidly right wing organisation that distorts the truth whenever it can.

"Hands up. Don't shoot" wasn't a distortion? The vigilante leftwing media was all over that bullshit. Unlike a lot of the left leaning media outlets FOX provides a forum where representatives from both sides of an issue argue their points.

You also seem to be ignoring the report that found that there is institutional racism ingrained within the Ferguson police department that led to many incidents, any one of which could have led to the riots.

Oh, I see. Somehow that justifies everything for you? That's an entirely different argument which has nothing to do with perpetrating and spreading a lie which caused looting, rioting, destruction of a town, and which targeted police officers for murder.

Why are American Christians are so right wing? Christians over here tend towards the left.

What does that have to do with the "Hands up. Don't shoot" lie?

[dyresand]

Just an example that happened yesterday in Vienna. Madman in Shaolin outfit, armed with a Samurai sword knocked down an appartment door. The girls living there managed to flee. Cops were called and when they arrived at the scene, the guy was on the stairs threatening them. Pepper spray didn't work on him, but they managed to subdue him anyway. Some got hurt, but the guy is safely stored in a mental hospital - as it should be.

Question: How would that same incident have turned out in the USA?

Assholes with guns it always happens they use the lethal way. The cop in question has many non lethal's to use at his disposal. 
1. Pepper spray
2. taser gun
3. taser
4. baton
5. self defense training. 

[DeistPaladin]

The "Hands up. Don't shoot", in the Michael Brown incident, has been determined by the DOJ to be "Bogus".

Once again the little conservative boy cries "wolf, wolf, wolf!"

I know conservatives don't like to be bothered with facts when they're working up their latest manufactured outrage but here we go:

1. "Not proven" isn't the same thing as "proven to the contrary". 
2. While the DOJ was not able to prove wrongdoing by the acting officer, it did find systematic racism in the Ferguson Police, a point glossed over by the conservative outrage machine.
3. The whole shooting of Brown was rendered comparatively moot, by which I mean you could have video footage proving self-defense by the shooting officer and the issue was rendered comparatively insignificant by the irresponsible and jack-booted activity of the police in response to the peaceful Ferguson protests. The Ferguson Police fired upon media camera crews, swept through nearby restaurants where they reportedly roughed up and arrested reporters for not clearing out fast enough, and generally acted like a bunch of drunken frat boys playing with their shiny new toys they got for Christmas. Their jack-booted behavior would be condemned by the USA if it happened in any other country. 

But the biggest fact I would like to bring to the table for Foxland that might help us to constructively deal with our ongoing race relations issues and help bring about the much needed healing is this:

Talking about race relation problems does not cause racial violence. 

We saw the assertions to the contrary when DeBlasio (*gasp*) talked about his feelings about his biracial son and "the talk" he had with him about how to deal with the police. We saw this when Obama talked about he if he had a son, he would be Travon's age. The conservative outrage machined swung into action, "OMG! They're stoking racial violence. DeBlasio caused the murder of those two police officers!"

So, apparently, if you don't talk about a problem, it just goes away?

Or if you do talk about a problem, even in the most gentle manner, you then own what anyone anywhere does? 

Or if you say, "You know, we really need to work on the problem in America of racial profiling so we can become a better society." it's the same thing as "go out and kill someone or riot in the streets"? 

You see the logical problem?

In order to be able to address a problem, we first need to be able to talk about a problem. Problems won't go away if you ignore them. As for Brown, the shooting could be completely justified for all it matters. We've got much larger issues to worry about with race relations in America. The behavior the Ferguson Police in the aftermath underscores this point.