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From where come your morals?
#21
RE: From where come your morals?
Altruism is a component of evolution. All animals exhibit it to varying degrees. From that stems our ability to know right from wrong. Now, how someone is raised can impact that person's level of empathy, so...while nature brings us traits suitable for compassion and morality (however you define that)...how we are nurtured, brings the rest into place.

A sense of knowing right from wrong doesn't stem from religion, but religion tends to hijack concepts that it had nothing to do with in the first place. :/
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#22
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 11, 2015 at 8:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: How anyone can ever intentionally harm another person or animal, and not for their overall benefit, is just astounding to me.

Lack of conscience maybe? Narcissists do this all the time. I should know. Currently there are approximately 4 invading my life at the present moment.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
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#23
RE: From where come your morals?
I'm very sorry to hear that Sad Yeah, probably you are right. Obviously people can and do find all sorts of reasons to hurt living beings. It's just that it feels so alien to me to even consider such a notion that it feels like people who are capable of it are a different sub species to me.
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#24
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 11, 2015 at 8:29 am)urlawyer Wrote: So, this is kind of a big topic amongst theists and atheists alike since it is paramount to each of our identities, worldview, and how we live our daily lives. I take a firm stance in the grounds of subjective morality which is why we have such a diversely opinionated people.
What I want to know is what values do you personally hold as a baseline for your own morality? Theists are welcome to join in the discussion but if you propose your holy scriptures as your foundation, please offer some specific pieces instead of the entirety so this doesn't turn into another "this-is-why-your-book-isn't-a-valid-source-of-morality" thread.
My personal baseline values are: human existence, individual enjoyment of said existence, truth, and knowledge.
I suppose these values make me something of an intellectual humanist... if my understanding of what a humanist is is correct.

All morality comes from the environment. Everything you hold dear to be right and wrong (illusions in of themselves) are a product of various influences in your environment affecting you at various points of your life from birth to now. This is the only source of morality. 
It also accounts for why the morality if people differs based on geographical location. The morality of someone in Saudi Arabia differs from that of someone in North America because the values of that society are very different. 


(April 11, 2015 at 8:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: How anyone can ever intentionally harm another person or animal, and not for their overall benefit, is just astounding to me.

Certain morals can cause other morals to develop or be lost.

Example:
Over the course of your life you have developed the moral that prostitution is immoral. You were not necessarily given this morality by your parents, but other factors have caused it to develop over the years. You later discover your mother is a prostitute. Because of your morality, you may be so sickened by this intelligence that you kill another prostitute. This, psychologically, may satisfy you and so you kill more prostitutes. You become a serial killer. Because of the morality 'prostitution is immoral' was compromised, the morality is 'killing is immoral' also becomes compromised.

Sometimes, the enforcement of one moral can lead to another being compromised also. Albert Fish, a famous serial killer of children is a famous example of this:

At the time, people couldn't understand why Fish was the way he was. This led, in part, to the theory of a genetic disposition (which is wholly incorrect). But an enterprising psychologist found that Fish's mother was a devout Catholic and, when Fish was young, she caught him masturbating. Her response was to point at him sternly and shout 'If you do that, you'll burn in Hell!'

The young Fish was so petrified by this idea, that he began sticking needles in his own genitals in a misguided act of repentance. Since his mother (or anyone else) was never witness to this misbehaviour, it could never be negatively reinforced to re-adjust him. And so the problem got worse. And later Fish began cutting off the genitals of young children and then killing him. Not because he was evil, or perverted, but because - in his mind - he was saving them from Hell.

So, in the final analysis, because the (false) morality 'Masturbation is Immoral' was brutishly enforced, it caused the morality 'killing is immoral' to become compromised.

(April 17, 2015 at 12:02 am)Deidre32 Wrote: Altruism is a component of evolution. All animals exhibit it to varying degrees. From that stems our ability to know right from wrong. Now, how someone is raised can impact that person's level of empathy, so...while nature brings us traits suitable for compassion and morality (however you define that)...how we are nurtured, brings the rest into place.

A sense of knowing right from wrong doesn't stem from religion, but religion tends to hijack concepts that it had nothing to do with in the first place. :/

Social History and Social Psychology can readily evidence that morality must precede religion in all cases for religion to have a concept of morality.
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#25
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 11, 2015 at 8:29 am)urlawyer Wrote: So, this is kind of a big topic amongst theists and atheists alike since it is paramount to each of our identities, worldview, and how we live our daily lives. I take a firm stance in the grounds of subjective morality which is why we have such a diversely opinionated people.
What I want to know is what values do you personally hold as a baseline for your own morality? Theists are welcome to join in the discussion but if you propose your holy scriptures as your foundation, please offer some specific pieces instead of the entirety so this doesn't turn into another "this-is-why-your-book-isn't-a-valid-source-of-morality" thread.
My personal baseline values are: human existence, individual enjoyment of said existence, truth, and knowledge.
I suppose these values make me something of an intellectual humanist... if my understanding of what a humanist is is correct.
My morals are derived from what I perceive as real human needs. In this sense they are objective because needs apply to everyone, as they are both biological and psychological, and as a result of evolutionary fitness, we share a closeness in genetic composition so as to experience the same needs. We all need food and drink to stay alive, for example, but each culture may vary in the food and drink they view as nutritious. That doesn't restrict a person from evaluating the health of each culture and making a determination of better or worse conditions based on a universal definition of health. The same goes for morality. As humans, we possess certain psychological needs, such as an ability to further our knowledge and relative freedom to exercise our rights, such as the autonomy of our own persons, privacy, speech, etc., which are rights because each person requires that these be respected by others in order to live well, and living well is the natural right of living if living is worth anything at all. As Socrates thought the unexamined life not worth living, Aristotle thought the unplanned life not worth examination. In order to plan, one must decide on what it means to live well, and this first and foremost means supplying one's self with the needs precluded by human life, and then with the wants that the good life entails. As man is a social animal, he forms bonds by which this goal is better achieved and protection is more ensured. This is the state. It is a person's wants that conflict, not his or her needs, which we all share. When a person wants more than they need, and it impedes on the wants or needs of another, there is conflict which sometimes involves a difficult moral dilemma. The only way to objectively evaluate their dispute is to apply the particulars to the universal as best as possible, e.g. "How would our ruling in this instance affect society if the rule was applied to all similar instances?”, and to consider the consequences in context of both the past and the future.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#26
RE: From where come your morals?
From where comes your morals?
Um, common sense, maybe?
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#27
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 17, 2015 at 2:56 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm very sorry to hear that Sad Yeah, probably you are right. Obviously people can and do find all sorts of reasons to hurt living beings. It's just that it feels so alien to me to even consider such a notion that it feels like people who are capable of it are a different sub species to me.

I feel like you have a fun riddle.  What's the line, and why?  Do you worry about cold medicine killing bacteria for example?  Do you worry about stepping on grass?  Have you ever puzzled through your feelings on the matter, to find out what circumstances need to be in place for the brain to fire up the compassion function?  

You don't like stepping on bugs.  Do you care if other people step on bugs  What about really tiny ants.  Our front sidewalk is covered with them.  Can't even see them unless you get down on the ground, and look real hard.  Do you worry about those bugs, or only about bugs you can see?  

I assume you don't walk around terrified you are stepping on really small bugs, so it's not killing things, it's the knowledge that you are killing things?  Do you feel terrible in hindsight that you have probably been squishing a bunch of bugs by mistake, without even thinking about it?  What are the implications of you not caring?

You won't squish a bug, because you don't want to hurt a living thing.  But you've been squishing bugs unintentionally for awhile, most likely.  If you don't feel a great sense of remorse over your tiny ant murder, then can it really be about not wanting to hurt a living thing?  

To which, I'd guess you'd say, I don't want to hurt a living thing on purpose.  But you don't mind slaughtering them not on purpose, and you probably aren't going to walk down the street with a magnifying glass to make sure it doesn't happen again.  So it's not really about the living thing, it's got something to do with you.  But what??!?!?  I don't know!  I will go lie in bed, and fall asleep pondering the great mysteries of Rob murdering extra tiny bugs.  
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#28
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 16, 2015 at 9:57 pm)Polaris Wrote: Family, society, a bit of self, and the last bit from the Bible in recent years.

Mind you, the Bible has had a lot of impact on the secular laws of my society as well to the point it may even be hard to actually distinguish where one inspiration begins and the other ends.

I can see why you might think so, but I think you are wrong about that.  Let's take the ten commandments for example.

Quote:Thou shalt have no other gods before me;
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image;
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;
Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

The secular laws here prohibit making any of those laws:


Quote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . .

Unless we are talking about laws prohibiting elder abuse, this one doesn't get much legislational play:

Quote:Honor thy father and they mother. fact, laws prohibiting child abuse appear to be the primary legal concern.
 Actually laws prohibiting child abuse appear to be the primary legal concern.
Quote:Thou shalt not murder.

Don't know of a society that doesn't prohibit that one.


Quote:Thou shalt not commit adultery
This one is only still on the books in a few states.  But thou shalt not rape, even within a marriage, is.  Oh, but wait that's one where the Bible punishes the victim.


Quote:Thou shalt not steal.

Find me a society no matter how secular where stealing isn't a crime.

Quote:Thou shalt not bring false witness against thy neighbor.
Do it under oath and it's a crime.  Do it more casually and perhaps you might get sued for liable.


Quote:Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.
Thous shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife servants animals or anything else.
Though crimes are frowned upon here.  A good thing too.

I'm trying to come up with a law that is constitutional, but also specifically Christian (as opposed to accepted by most societies) and failing.  Prohibitions against gay marriage, abortion, or birth control perhaps, though those are mercifully falling by the wayside.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#29
RE: From where come your morals?
Wallym:

Yes I'm well aware bugs and other tiny forms of life die all the time, and I'm helpless to stop it. Me not being able to step on a bug is about me. I'm sure I have accidentally crushed plenty of bugs in my lifetime, but it's not my intention to.

I wasn't trying to say how amazing I was, I wanted to explain a point about how hard wired I am. When I referred to other people hurting animals, I don't count bugs and bacteria. If someone deliberately kills an insect for no reason other than they want to, then that makes me a little sad. But if they are cruel to a larger animal, that makes me a lot more sad. I suppose I can relate more to larger animals, and I suspect their scope for suffering is a lot higher.
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#30
RE: From where come your morals?
(April 26, 2015 at 1:58 am)robvalue Wrote: Wallym:

Yes I'm well aware bugs and other tiny forms of life die all the time, and I'm helpless to stop it. Me not being able to step on a bug is about me. I'm sure I have accidentally crushed plenty of bugs in my lifetime, but it's not my intention to.

I wasn't trying to say how amazing I was, I wanted to explain a point about how hard wired I am. When I referred to other people hurting animals, I don't count bugs and bacteria. If someone deliberately kills an insect for no reason other than they want to, then that makes me a little sad. But if they are cruel to a larger animal, that makes me a lot more sad. I suppose I can relate more to larger animals, and I suspect their scope for suffering is a lot higher.

Just to be clear, I'm not judging you in any way.  I'm just curious how you are in fact hard wired.  

There is a difference for example between not wanting to step on a bug, and not wanting to intend to step on a bug.  
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