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Long term Nihilists
#31
RE: Long term Nihilists
(April 13, 2015 at 11:45 pm)JuliaL Wrote:
(April 12, 2015 at 11:13 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Just the belief that nothing really matters or has any sort of value.

I'll go with this, which is from wikipedia.

But also per Wikipedia:


Quote: A proposition is generally considered objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "bias-free"; that is, existing without biases caused by, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject.


So where does one find anything which is "bias free?"  Does it sit on the ideal chair or under the ideal sofa?

I'm perfectly happy with my subjective life full of personal biases.  If that makes me a nihilist by the above definition (which I don't grant as coherent) then so be it.  I share my biases with most of my community and we make up our own very satisfying purposes, thank you very much.

The way I look at, we all have bias towards our perception of ourselves. Yet we believe there is an objective value or worth to ourselves, even if we don't know it. Sure our perception of ourselves will be bias but we do believe there is an objective nature to ourselves and an objective value.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to give meaning to ourselves.
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#32
RE: Long term Nihilists
(April 12, 2015 at 11:13 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Just the belief that nothing really matters or has any sort of value.

I'll go with this, which is from wikipedia.


Quote: Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

Being "without objective meaning" is not the same as having no meaning.

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#33
RE: Long term Nihilists
(April 13, 2015 at 11:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The way I look at, we all have bias towards our perception of ourselves. Yet we believe there is an objective value or worth to ourselves, even if we don't know it. Sure our perception of ourselves will be bias but we do believe there is an objective nature to ourselves and an objective value.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to give meaning to ourselves.

I emphatically withhold belief there is an objective value or worth to anything if the definition of objective means it is out there somewhere on its own. I do believe in the actual existence of something, left fairly unspecified, which appears to me to be particles, fields, etc and assemblages thereof. My observations of the behaviors of these show them to be simple and common and wholly unlike Truth, Beauty and The American Way. No, Value and Worth are subjective, bias ridden and I do not believe they have any intrinsic qualities, just those assigned to them by me and my communities.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? Huh
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#34
RE: Long term Nihilists
How do you assign value to yourself without belief in there actually being value to yourself?
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#35
RE: Long term Nihilists
I look at the infinite spaces of emptiness before and after this short line known as my existence, and it becomes infinitely valuable in comparison because without it, there is nothing---including meaning
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#36
RE: Long term Nihilists
I think the flaw in the nihilistic approach might be the idea meaning needs to be forever to exist. 

The existence of the universe, as far as we know, has no objective.  Serving a purpose is the scope in which meaning exists, so from the perspective of something purposeless, you can't have meaning.  

On the other hand, purpose can exist.  The purpose of washing your hands is the desire to get them clean.  So using soap in this scenario is meaningful in the scope of hand-washing.

When we turn it to people's lives.  If Bob's grandma sends him a birthday card right before she dies, that card may be meaningful to him.  In that his possession of the card serves the purpose of causing the firing off of some brain thingies that yield a desired result.  While Bob finding the card has no lasting meaning in the greater scope, Bob finding meaning in the card is a historical fact.  

Even the idea of "Was that action worth 12!?" as a dismissal of objective meaning doesn't work when you apply scope.  In terms of handwashing, you can quantify how meaningful using soap is.  In terms of Bob's emotional state in regards to his grandmother, there are results that lead to more or less favorable mental states.  

In fact, I think those objective numerical style values are probably what drive most of our behavior.  Our subconscious is taking in input, crunching the numbers, and spitting out the response it wants.  Not randomly, but with purpose.  The actions have meaning in the scope of fulfilling the subconscious' objectives.  
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#37
RE: Long term Nihilists
(April 13, 2015 at 8:56 am)Mezmo! Wrote: If life doesn't matter in the long term then it doesn't really matter in the short term either. Even proximate meaning without a foundation is no meaning at all.

Exactly. I mean people can say that their lives have meaning all they like, just like they can say a rock's existence has meaning. That's all just nonsense though that we are imposing on ourselves to not deal with reality as it is. There is no meaning to life.

(April 14, 2015 at 12:20 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Being "without objective meaning" is not the same as having no meaning.

I don't think anybody, Nihilist or not is denying subjective meaning. That's the same as subjective moral values though, or subjective science or subjective math. It is meaningless in and unto itself.

(April 13, 2015 at 9:58 am)Faith No More Wrote: If we're defining nihilist as seeing no objective meaning, then I am one of those for short term and long term.  What I don't believe, however, is that seeing no objective meaning precludes me from finding meaning myself.  I can still value myself and my experiences, which I also extend to others, without it having meaning that last forever.  The idea that meaning has to last forever otherwise it holds no true value is just silliness.

Wouldn't you say that that meaning in ultimately illusionary though? I could apply meaning to anything. I could say that diddling around on facebook all day has amazing meaning. I think that the truth (whether or not people find it to be depressing or not, I think it's rather funny actually) is that in 100,000 years when humanity no longer exists that the person who diddled around on facebook all day with have equal meaning to Newton and Einstein. None.
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#38
RE: Long term Nihilists
1) Why is it illusionary and not just temporary.  Are there other things that exist for a while but because they don't persist eternally, we deem them illusionary?

2) If we view meaning as a creation of the human mind with the purpose of prioritizing things to fulfill biological impulses, would that be considered objectively real?  Does it matter that we aren't actually separate from the universe, and are in fact just a part of it's current state?  To the point that the universe actually is responsible for creating meaning by evolving some of it's matter into Aunt Linda who believes a life lived on farmville is a life well lived?

Is Aunt Linda's biological impulse leading to her finding meaning in farmville different than a biological impulse to feel hungry when it's time to eat?  If we view it as an actual neurological brain function the universe developed as it grew older rather than a non-tangible philosophical concept, does that change the discussion? I don't think anyone would say our desire to eat is illusionary. It seems no different than gravity. It's just how some matter in the universe in particular states behave.

Or do we view philosophical meaning as something separate from what our subconscious is outputting into our 'consciousness' as meaning?

----

Just adding onto my own thoughts on the fly...

Would Aunt Linda's finding meaning in Farmville be a universal law as legit as any of the others? When an Aunt Linda interacts with a Farmville, Aunt Linda finds it meaningful. In the same way that 1 + 4 = 5. So even though Aunt Linda existed only for 60 years a billion years ago, wouldn't the universal law of Aunt Linda and Farmville's remain? Does it being a law make it permanent, even though it only happened one time? It would still be a part of how you define the universe.
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#39
RE: Long term Nihilists
I think Nihilism is a consequence of religion, in which all values are assigned or 'created' from god rather than man themselves. Consequently no god=no values or meaning. This however, is a deeply literal interpretation of nihilism in which all meaning is lost. learning to develop ethical and existential ideas without religion is hard because religious ideas remain deeply ingrained in our secular culture.

Frederich Nietzsche had a point when he said that the "death of god" would necessitate the "trans-valuation of all values" derived from god. There is a link between strong atheism and the nihilism because strong atheism changes the definition of objective reality to exclude the possibility existence of god and deny it is possible.

God provides the source of "objective" ethics in a religious view because god has consciousness and is said to objectively exist. If we reject this, we lose the source of our objective values and then fall back on to our own consciousness and therefore end up making moral judgements based on our subjective preferences. Nihilism is a necessary part of the destruction of religious belief and of morality derived from religious sources- but it should not be an end in itself.

A nihilist eventually has to seek an new objective source for their morality. so long as truth, and therefore 'right and wrong' as a arbitrated to the consciousness of the individual, it is more than likely that nihilism will have deeply destructive effects on the person themselves and on the people around them. Nihilism doesn't stop with rejecting objective ethics, but then moves on to objective truth, science, knowledge, etc. These things are not a product of an individuals' consciousness or free will but a necessary part of the human condition and of mental health. Ethics are not necessarily a choice, but are a set of rules we spontaneously develop to get along with each other. it is in our social activity that we define our sense of right and wrong. I'd therefore say that nihilism is a journey rather than a destination.
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#40
RE: Long term Nihilists
(October 5, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: For my part, I've come to the conclusion that nihilism is incoherent.  Meaning is an inherently subjective phenomenon.  It's like value; there is no such thing as objective value.  The phrase "objective meaning" has no sensible interpretation.   I would also suggest that people can never escape meaning; they can never avoid their lives having some meaning or other, to themselves.  A life being imbued with final purpose, lasting value, and significance may have a lot of meaning for someone, but that doesn't make that meaning objective.  If nihilism is coherent, then it too is a nihilistic existence.   Purpose, value, and significance are always purpose, value, and significance from some perspective.  It doesn't become objective by postulating a lot of it, or deriving it from some super being.  Nihilism has become the bugbear of modern philosophy, and I deny that it has any meaning as a position.  It's nothing more than a category error; applying a concept to things to which it cannot apply.
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