Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 7:57 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
#1
What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
I've been putting some thought, and actually doing some reading on the idea of free will.  It's existence is one thing.  I'm leaning towards it not being a thing, and probably consciousness being an illusion as well.  But it's mostly guesswork for now, which is all that's relevant.

The problem is the implications of that uncertainty. 

How one would behave in a world where people are responsible for their actions, and one where they aren't are totally different.  

In a world where they are, we're free to judge and despise them.  Feel superiority, etc.. And it's all fine, because we chose to be who we are, and they chose to be who they are.  

In it's absence, however, that's the equivalent of yelling at the weather.  We don't believe a tornado is a jerk.  Instead we'd focus on getting a desirable outcome.  Things would be dealt with in a very logical way, as we attempted to dissuade/modify behaviors to get them to fall in line with whatever it is we want.

Or perhaps judging/despising/feeling superiority is the answer that evolution came up with that is more effective at getting the desired results than becoming aware of free will being an illusion, and acting accordingly based on that understanding?

Key point:  
When you have a concept that defines how you should live, and you don't know the true nature of that concept, how do you go forward?  Does it matter to people that their belief/non-belief in free will has a decent chance of being a fallacy upon which so much of their live's decisions are built? 
Reply
#2
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
I want to write a very long, detailed, thoughtful, maybe boring response to this, but I'm at work. I'll try to expound tonight.
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D

Don't worry, my friend.  If this be the end, then so shall it be.
Reply
#3
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
The existence of free-will matters only within the scope of the decision. If everything is predetermined, then our logical and illogical actions are also predetermined and trying to change them is futile at best. Thus the concept of freewill actually aids us in making decisions by at least providing an illusion of choices.
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

Reply
#4
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
Act as if free will does exist.

There is also "compatibilism"

Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe both without being logically inconsistent.[1] Compatibilists believe freedom can be present or absent in situations for reasons that have nothing to do with metaphysics.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Reply
#5
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
No, compatibilists just change the definition of freewill to mean "free to do what you were pre-determined to do anyway". Which basically means compatibilists are determinists who don't like the idea of "hard" determinism. At least that's what I have seen so far, even in great thinkers like Daniel Dennett.
It's extremely frustrating to argue with a compatibilist, it's like people who insist they are agnostic only and neither atheist or theist. They have to change the definition of the word for their position to make any sense, and even then it doesn't really.

I think the OP makes a good point. If we really understand that peoples actions are determined, and not chosen, then it IS like being mad at the weather. Many humanists groups now reject all notions of freewill, as they think society would be more likely to focus on fixing the causes of peoples bad behavior, instead of just punishing them out of anger. Basically, they argue that a true deterministic worldview would lead to a more compassionate society.

Some will at this point argue that people must be held responsible for their actions. You can't say to the guy who raped a murdered a 3 year old, oh it's ok, you were pre-determined to do that. Of course not! And no determinist or Humanist would argue for that either. You would still need to take steps to prevent re-offending, but they would be USEFULL steps, because the current justice system doesn't rehabilitate existing offender OR deter would be offenders (much, at least).
Others will argue that since our illusion would persist even if hard determinism is true, what is the point in realizing it's an illusion? But again, I would argue that when making reasoned decisions, such as how to treat a criminal offender, it would make a WORLD of difference. Because we are human, we would still feel anger, hurt, etc, but the more all of society acted on the basis of determinism, the more people would also get in the habit of thinking that way.

Anyway, this is one of my favorite topics. I expect I'll get throroughly blasted by some compatibilist, but I'm used to it. It's still an argument I enjoy having, because I thinkit's an important one to have, so thanks for starting the topic!
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
Reply
#6
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
(April 14, 2015 at 1:49 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: The existence of free-will matters only within the scope of the decision. If everything is predetermined, then our logical and illogical actions are also predetermined and trying to change them is futile at best. Thus the concept of freewill actually aids us in making decisions by at least providing an illusion of choices.

I make an app that tells me what I should wear.  Tomorrow it's going to rain, so it'll tell me to wear galoshes. 

That conclusion is 'predetermined', but if I don't run the app, I won't clean my galoshes in preparation for tomorrow, and all the kids will pick on me.

I believe analyzing the question of free will is running the app.  Knowing that I have no say in the conclusions I'm drawing doesn't change the fact that my subconscious may draw new "better" conclusions that lead to different "better" behavior.  And if it does, then it can output that information so that others will input it, and possibly adapt the 'better' behavior.  

The carrot possibly being a positive stimuli associated with these things happening.
Reply
#7
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
Even incompatibilists and hard determinists must navigate existence as if they had free will. I think this is what Simon Moon was getting at. For simplicity's sake, I am defining free will as the ability to choose between two or more courses of bounded action. By bounded action I mean that we are constrained by physical laws and even then are limited if others are involved. An example of the former constraint is that I cannot choose to take a stroll on Europa; an example of the later is that I cannot suit up tomorrow at third base for the Cincinnati Reds wearing the number 14. 

The entire free will debate is no doubt an interesting philosophical endeavor that could lead to future meaningful scientific inquiry, but for all practical purposes it's irrelevant and nowhere near being resolved. 
Reply
#8
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
(April 14, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Cato Wrote: Even incompatibilists and hard determinists must navigate existence as if they had free will. I think this is what Simon Moon was getting at. For simplicity's sake, I am defining free will as the ability to choose between two or more courses of bounded action. By bounded action I mean that we are constrained by physical laws and even then are limited if others are involved. An example of the former constraint is that I cannot choose to take a stroll on Europa; an example of the later is that I cannot suit up tomorrow at third base for the Cincinnati Reds wearing the number 14. 

The entire free will debate is no doubt an interesting philosophical endeavor that could lead to future meaningful scientific inquiry, but for all practical purposes it's irrelevant and nowhere near being resolved. 

Although I agree it isn't resolved, and possibly cannot be because of our own built-in bias on the subject, but I would certainly argue that it is not at all irrelevant.  Again, see the Humanist argument that deterministic worldviews would lead to a more compassionate society, and even a more functional one.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
Reply
#9
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
(April 14, 2015 at 4:45 pm)Aroura Wrote: Although I agree it isn't resolved, and possibly cannot be because of our own built-in bias on the subject, but I would certainly argue that it is not at all irrelevant.  Again, see the Humanist argument that deterministic worldviews would lead to a more compassionate society, and even a more functional one.

I'll have to read up a bit, but I can't imagine how a determinist worldview would necessarily lead to a more compassionate and functional society. On the surface it seems like a bit of wish fulfillment with nobody being able to give a proper bottoms-up description of exactly how things work. Why couldn't a determisitc universe result in anarchy and chaos? To me we wish for an ideal and then rationalize how the stars aligned to get us there.
Reply
#10
RE: What do we do while deciding if free will exists?
I'm no philosophy expert, but let me try and give you a rundown of the general idea.

Let's say person A commits a violent crime.  In current society (it varies from country to country of course, but it is basically the same), once said criminal is captured, the general process is some sort of trial, followed by punishment and/or incarceration, to give people the feeling that "he got what he deserved".  There might also be some "treatment" to help prevent recidivism, but most treatments are really more punishments in disguise.  This ranges from abuse and torture to helping them find religion, to using modern psychiatric treatments.  But in most cases, the treatments are ineffective or even make matters worse.

In a society where laws were based on a deterministic view, that same criminal might be evaluated to discover the cause of his criminal behavior.  He is...brain damaged from birth (sociopath) or was heavily abused, what have you.  Then his treatment would be based on correcting the underlying issues that caused his criminal behavior, instead of just punishing him for doing it.  Information gathered would be used to help prevent others from ever becoming damaged in the same way.  More socialism, basically.

I think Sam Harris makes a very good argument for how determinism would cause more compassion in his book "The Moral Landscape", but also in a lecture he gave at the Dangerous ideas Symposium some years ago, if anyone is interested in watching it.





On a personal level, I've accepted determinism and found that it does indeed cause me to think more compassionately, not more anarchist.  When a religious person tells me I'm going to hell, it still hurts because I have emotions, but I no longer hold it against that person.  I don't even need to forgive them.  You can skip that step simply by understanding it is their nature, they aren't "choosing" to be a dick.  IT IS like being mad at the weather, you start to realize.  And then you can accept people more as they are, feel hurt less yourself, and begin to look for real answers to societal problems instead of just shifting around blame.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  God exists subjectively? henryp 90 12181 November 21, 2016 at 9:04 am
Last Post: Tonus
  God exists because we can imagine it Heat 46 7716 December 6, 2015 at 11:05 am
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  If God exists but doesn't do anything, how would we know? And would it matter? TaraJo 7 3986 January 26, 2013 at 11:14 am
Last Post: DeistPaladin
  Do your beliefs imply a Necessary being exists? CliveStaples 124 46962 August 29, 2012 at 5:22 am
Last Post: Categories+Sheaves
  If you were certain a designer exists... Mystic 10 4228 July 21, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Last Post: Whateverist
  A One In An infinity Chance That God Exists. What Do You Guys Think? amateurlyinsightful 82 29545 July 6, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Last Post: amateurlyinsightful
  I believe everything exists. Edwardo Piet 23 5302 November 2, 2010 at 4:46 am
Last Post: Ervin
  Everything exists TruthWorthy 33 16545 March 10, 2010 at 5:40 am
Last Post: Violet



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)