Another Good Reason to be a Christian

[Lek]

I believe if someone possesses the truth it will emanate from him.  A person who can live with joy in any circumstance is one whom I would look to as evidence of the truth.  It demonstrates the power of God in that person.  In effect, this person has been "set free".  Sin keeps us from experiencing that joy.
John 8:31-32 English Standard Version (ESV)
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Philippians 4:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
These people are living evidence of the truthfulness of the above scriptures.

So, you're a Buddhist then?  Or maybe Jainist?
People of all faiths and of none can have a great deal of joy in life.  More than Christians, even!  You are dealing with some serious personal bias's.  Good luck with those.

It's just my observation, not a bias. Buddhists look at the world as just a place of suffering and are working to reach the state in which they won't have to come back anymore. Christians look as living in the world as a time of serving God.

---

I used to be very happy before I got ill.

I'm afraid I don't know where you are going with this Lek. Are you explaining more reasons why you like being a Christian, or are you presenting a case for why someone else should consider becoming a Christian?

Both.

---

The only people you hang out with are christians.  


...And?

(Also, your definition of 'joyful' is irrelevant to me. Since we define it differently, you can't prove with any accuracy that I'm any more or less joyful than your friends.  I talk to my cats, they talk to their imaginary friend.  Equally happy?)

Wrong about who I hang out with. I guess my definition of "joy" is what I'm discussing here.

[abaris]

As I was driving home from bible study and worship service today I came to a realization.

Hey, it's your sunday, you can waste your free time any way you like.

[robvalue]

OK Lek, are you suggesting atheists pretend to believe in a bunch of supernatural claims so that they can enjoy the benefits of Christianity?

Beliefs, or lack of beliefs, are not a choice. They are a state of mind. If you are "choosing" to believe in Christianity, then in fact you don't believe it and are just saying you do. If you really do believe it, then you have reasons for doing so. They may be good or bad reasons.

I have not a single reason to think anything regarding Christianity is true, so my only option would be to pretend to believe. The only way I could actually believe is if I receive new evidence, or I consider old evidence and change my mind about it.

Also, the idea of worship is ridiculous to me. I'd never worship anyone or anything. Even if God really was all good, I wouldn't worship him. A god needs nothing from me, and if it expects something, it's extremely petty and very ungodly. More like an egotistical human who needs attention all the time.

I certainly wouldn't want to be within a million miles of the monster in the bible, so you'd have to convince me that in fact God is being totally misrepresented in the bible. But I still wouldn't worship him.

[Faith No More]

Objects of mass move together as a consequence of gravity. That counts as evidence. You don't understand how the fallacy works do you?

Appeal to Consequences

Explanation
An appeal to consequences is an attempt to motivate belief with an appeal either to the good consequences of believing or the bad consequences of disbelieving. This may or may not involve an appeal to force. Such arguments are clearly fallacious. There is no guarantee, or even likelihood, that the world is the way that it is best for us for it to be. Belief that the world is the way that it is best for us for it to be, absent other evidence, is therefore just as likely to be false as true.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-consequences/


Looks like I'm right on...

[Esquilax]

The belief that you're an immortal living in a perfect world, and that all the bad things you see are merely illusions, would also leave you joyful. That doesn't mean there's a good reason to believe that.

[Angrboda]

Based on a systematic examination of over 100 studies – and drawing heavily from the work of Koenig et al. (2001) – McCullough and Smith (2003, 191–192) conclude that ‘‘people who are religious devout, but not extremists, tend to report greater subjective well-being and life satisfaction…more ability to cope with stress and crises…and fewer symptoms of depression’’ than secular people. However, it should be pointed out that some have vigorously refuted such sweeping conclusions, arguing that the link between religiosity and positive health outcomes is grossly exaggerated (Sloan and Bagiella 2002).

Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being

[Lek]

OK Lek, are you suggesting atheists pretend to believe in a bunch of supernatural claims so that they can enjoy the benefits of Christianity?

Beliefs, or lack of beliefs, are not a choice. They are a state of mind. If you are "choosing" to believe in Christianity, then in fact you don't believe it and are just saying you do. If you really do believe it, then you have reasons for doing so. They may be good or bad reasons.

I have not a single reason to think anything regarding Christianity is true, so my only option would be to pretend to believe. The only way I could actually believe is if I receive new evidence, or I consider old evidence and change my mind about it.

Also, the idea of worship is ridiculous to me. I'd never worship anyone or anything. Even if God really was all good, I wouldn't worship him. A god needs nothing from me, and if it expects something, it's extremely petty and very ungodly. More like an egotistical human who needs attention all the time.

I certainly wouldn't want to be within a million miles of the monster in the bible, so you'd have to convince me that in fact God is being totally misrepresented in the bible. But I still wouldn't worship him.

I'm not suggesting that anybody should pretend to believe in God. If someone believes in a God who loves us and is involved in our lives and they demonstrate these kind of results, then this is evidence for the existence of the God they believe in. We accept the existence of many things in the universe not because we can observe them, but because we can observe their effects on the universe. If you met someone who you thought had it totally together, wouldn't you be interested in finding out why?

[Mudhammam]

I'm not suggesting that anybody should pretend to believe in God.  If someone believes in a God who loves us and is involved in our lives and they demonstrate these kind of results, then this is evidence for the existence of the God they believe in.  We accept the existence of many things in the universe not because we can observe them, but because we can observe their effects on the universe.  If you met someone who you thought had it totally together, wouldn't you be interested in finding out why?

When you finally admit that neither you nor anyone else can ever demonstrate God as the cause of "these kinds of results" (What kinds? Happiness? Joy? Seriously?), I think more of those who vehemently disagree with your philosophy (if I can be allowed to call vulgar superstition a philosophical outlook) will be able to show a modicum of respect towards your opinions. 

[The Grand Nudger]

If you met someone who you thought had it totally together, wouldn't you be interested in finding out why?

Sure....and the moment they said "because ghosts" I'd have concluded two things.  

A- They've given themselves and the hard work they've done an exceedingly short shrift
B- They've come completely unhinged - and don't have it quite as together as I initially thought.....

[Iroscato]

Lek, let me start off by saying I quite like you, though I have gotten a bit hot-headed with you before. I don't think you are as far gone as some of the loons I've met in my life, and believe you are a decent human being, or at least try to be from what I've seen. Therefore, I have some time for you. With that said...

The argument that theists are more joyful than atheists.
Going from my personal experience, this is simply not the case. I'm not saying the reverse is in fact true, I'm saying there is no discernible difference between the two groups. You see my Religious Views? That's where I get a lot of my joy from, and I will draw on my own personal experiences in arguing the first point. Whenever I see the latest development in technology that will help in the fight against cancer, I am immensely proud (a sin according to the Bahble, but meh) of the effort and work gone into that achievement. When I see human beings scrabble desperately through rubble to try and saved loved ones - or even total strangers, I am overcome with the emotions you expect from watching such powerful determination.
An example of one such experience; this picture. It's of a Syrian boy hugging his little sister tightly after she's rescued from a destroyed building. It's one of the most powerful pictures I've ever seen, and fucks me up every time I look at it.

---

---

Now that might not conjure up 'joy' per se, but that and other things create extremely strong emotional responses in me across the entire spectrum. What I'm saying is, do not think of us as joyless, emotionally stunted beings simply because we do not believe in a higher power or purpose. This earth, this time, this life is our own, and it's the only one we know with absolute certainty we get. The achievements, struggles and accomplishments of our species produce immense joy and pride in my heart (well, brain), as does the happiness of my friends and family, the jokes we share, the times we have together. Nothing I can think of can match this for me, because I know that it is real, and it is now.

We do not need religion to love life, with every fibre of our being. We need good people, and amazing experiences. Real experiences, that we can draw on and lean on in our times of need, the reminder that things can always get better, and have been better in the past.
No human alive knows what the true nature of the universe is. No pastor, nor preacher nor cleric nor holy man nor pope nor scientist can claim knowledge of ultimate truth with total sincerity, despite their claims to the contrary. Do I know with 100% certainty that there is no God? No, I do not. But what I DO know is I am alive, in the here and now, and to make that experience as joyful as I can in the unknown amount of time I have on this planet is the thing that matters most to me in the world. And since I have never in my life seen evidence that anything exists after this life, I do not trouble myself with musing on the supernatural and what comes after, except when I'm in debate mood, or just have the occasional quiet ten minutes