Arguing w/ Religious Friends

[z7z]

What is the best way to argue with religious friends and even try to dissuade them of their religion without losing them as a friend or overly offending them? What are your top 5 arguments against religion and strategies for debating religion? I need to watch some more debates with Sam Harris and Dawkins.

Mine are (still working on them):
1. No proof of God or miracles.
2. Science has disproven many religious claims.
3. Most religions are over 1,000 years old. We have learned so much since then.
4. God loves you but will send you to eternal hellfire if he chooses.
5. There are too many religions for them all to be true.

Debating techniques:
1. Don't raise your voice
2. Don't attack the person
3. Don't interrupt them too much

[FatAndFaithless]

There's no magic bullet for which argument to use or which technique to employ. It's also entirely possible that you present an argument and they reject it, then they later hear that same argument from someone else and have a different reaction, simply due to personality interaction.


That being said, I find simply employing the socratic method and asking them questions creates a lot of good discussion, and generally leads to specific arguments after focusing the conversation.

And as for the 'debating techniques', there are people that respond better in an impassioned conversation where emotions are involved and voices may be raised, there are people that actually might respond to ridicule of their beliefs, and there are people that are used to diferent kinds of casual conversation. Again there's no list of "do's and don'ts" for me when it comes to discussing something, because everyone's different.

[Jenny A]

Unless you all like to debate for the sake of debate (some people do myself included), there's not much point in trying to make people atheists by logical arguments. If they really have faith, they just dig in and say "la, la, la" in the back of their mind.

I suggest the stealth method. Ask them why they believe. If they grew up in a religious home, they often don't really know. If the answer is the Bible, ask them why they think that it's true and so on. Don't press, just ask and wait for the penny to drop. Ask again in a week or two.

[Crossless2.0]

If they are truly friends, you must like them for reasons that have nothing to do with their beliefs and religious practices. Before arguing with them, you might well ask yourself if it's worth it. Losing a good friend for no reason other than their taste in imaginary friends seems a bit silly to me, and I would hesitate to make it an issue unless they were shoving their beliefs on you. And if they are becoming pains in the ass -- proselytizing and so forth -- then perhaps they aren't such good friends to begin with. My attitude IRL is that if people keep their beliefs to themselves, there is no good reason to engage them. If they insist on trying to convert me, or if they actively try to insert their beliefs into the public realm at the expense of the 1st Amendment, then they're fair game and deserve whatever withering contempt they are given.

If you must argue with them, remember that they (the claimants) bear the burden of evidence. You believe a god exists? Fine. What's your evidence? Then get ready to deal with a freight train of unsubstantiated claims, pseudo-philosophical apologetic bullshit, quotes from their holy book, passive-aggressive veiled threats, logical fallacies galore, and emotional manipulation.

In other words, they have nothing. You just have to be adept at spotting the rhetorical sleight-of-hand. This forum is crammed with examples of what to watch for.

[abaris]

What is the best way to argue with religious friends and even try to dissuade them of their religion without losing them as a friend or overly offending them? What are your top 5 arguments against religion and strategies for debating religion? I need to watch some more debates with Sam Harris and Dawkins.

Three questions in return:

Why do you have to argue with them? Are they pestering you or is it the other way round?

Why do you need top arguments that are outside of your own reasoning?

And why ... see question #2. You know, Harris and Dawkins aren't god. Personally I find it rather tiresome that some people do feel the need to idolize them instead of using their own damned grey mass between the ears.

Personally I never argued with friends or family over religion. But, assuming you're an American, I live in a totally different society where religion is hardly ever on the agenda.

[z7z]

I went on a mission trip to feed the homeless and fix up a church with a Christian friend and another friend that is atheist. One of the guys we drove with found out we were atheist and was really trying to convince us God existed and I tried to engage him and convince him there is no God while my other friend didn't engage him at all. There was no hope in talking him out of it, but I wondered how I could convince him.

[Minimalist]

What is the best way to argue with religious friends and even try to dissuade them of their religion without losing them as a friend or overly offending them?

You might find out that they prefer their fairy tale illusions to you.  Theists are, in essence, weak and insecure and need to believe in some bullshit to prop themselves up.  They may not react well to rational arguments and facts.  Some people are simply that way and you must be prepared for that reaction.

[KevinM1]

I went on a mission trip to feed the homeless and fix up a church with a Christian friend and another friend that is atheist. One of the guys we drove with found out we were atheist and was really trying to convince us God existed and I tried to engage him and convince him there is no God while my other friend didn't engage him at all. There was no hope in talking him out of it, but I wondered how I could convince him.

You likely can't.

[Nope]

I went on a mission trip to feed the homeless and fix up a church with a Christian friend and another friend that is atheist. One of the guys we drove with found out we were atheist and was really trying to convince us God existed and I tried to engage him and convince him there is no God while my other friend didn't engage him at all. There was no hope in talking him out of it, but I wondered how I could convince him.

He thinks he is helping you and proving to himself that he is a real Christian. One annoying aspect of Christianity is that it is evangelical so it is part of their faith that they aggravate people. 

You probably can't change his mind. Ask him questions about why he believes. Dig a little. Is he afraid of death and not existing? Has religion convinced him that without faith he would become a rapists or murderer?  Once you find the emotional reasons that he believes you can at least offer him an alternative way of dealing with those fears or hopes. 

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Tip #1: Don't do it! Don't waste your time, unless they ask you what your positions are, and seem genuinely curious and open-minded to them.