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Hello everyone!!
#31
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 28, 2008 at 11:04 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(November 28, 2008 at 3:11 pm)Daystar Wrote: Hello, and welcome, I don't know about the author of The God Delission not being able to prove Jesus wasn't God but I can.

(November 28, 2008 at 3:25 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Hi Daystar, if you get a minute I'd be interested to see your 'proofs' that Jesus isn't God, if you'd care to PM me them. Thanks....

(November 28, 2008 at 3:44 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: I watched an episode of O'Reilly Factor on FOX News, and Bill O'Reilly had a guest on his show, and he is the author of the Book called, "The God Delusion." Bill O'Reilly came right out and told Professor Richard Dawkins, "You cannot prove to me that Jesus Christ wasn't God." And Mr. Dawkins agreed with him. However, Mr Dawkins told O'Reilly, "You can't prove that Thor or Zeus were not gods either."

I would love to see how you have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ was not God.

Not only can I show that Jesus wasn't God, but I can show that Thor and Zeus were gods.



Jesus Wasn't God



John 8:54 - Jesus answered: "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.

John 17:3 - This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

John 20:17 - Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

Matthew 26:39 - And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will."

John 8:17-18 - Also, in your own Law it is written, 'The witness of two men is true.' I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.



Zeus



Zeus was the supreme god of the Greeks, corresponding to Jupiter of the Romans. He was a god of the sky, thought to have the control of the winds, coluds, rain and thunder. His power over these forces were used in both destructive and beneficial purposes. Homer's The Iliad (VIII, 1-25) sort of presented Zeus as having greater strength than all the other gods combined but he was not regarded as supreme in the absolute sense. He became a victim of deception and yielded to the will of the Fates and Destiny.

Legends of his birth, childhood and acquisition of the throne were somewhat dwarfed in importance by the legends chiefly concerned with his many love affairs. Seducing goddesses and human women and fathering illegitimate children.

According to the Apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees 6:1-2 King Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) tried to stamp out the Jewish religion by profaning the temple at Jerusalem and rededicate it to Zeus of Olympus.

According to Acts 14:8-13 the people of Lystra identified Paul with Hermes and Barnabas with Zeus, the priest of Zeus went so far as to bring out bulls and garlands in order to offer sacrifices with the crowd.

At Acts 28:11 the apostle Paul was a prisoner on a ship that set sail from the island of Malta whose figurehead was "Sons of Zeus."

I can prove he was a god because 1909, in the area of Lystra inscriptions were found that referred to the "priests of Zeus" and "Hermes Most Great" and "Zeus the sun-god." - The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. III, p. 1944.



Thor



Thor was one of the many mythical gods, including Odin, Frey, Freya and Hel. A slayer of giants and ruler of winds and rain. Norse mythology is the basis for some of the Anglo-Saxon and thus English names of the week. Tyr for (Tyr's day) Tuesday, Odin (aka Woden Woden's day) Wednesday, Thor (Thor's day) for Thursday and Frigga (Frigga's day) for Friday.

Another Thor from ancient German mythology seems to have been an originator of Santa Clause. 'Thor was an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build with a long white beard. He drove a chariot and was said to live in the Northland . . . His element was fire, his color red. The fireplace in every home was sacred to him, and he was said to come down into it through the chimney.'

The European Christmas custom of burning a huge log in the fireplace came from Scandinavians who burned enormous bonfires in honor of their god of thunder, Thor.

An English Benedictine monk in the eighth century known as Boniface, the so called Apostle to Germany was considered the "greatest missionary of the Dark Ages." The Encyclopedia of Religion wrote of his method to covert people to Catholicism: "At Geismar [near Göttingen, Germany] he dared to fell the sacred oak of Thor. . . . [When he] suffered no vengeance from the resident Germanic god, it was clear that the God whom he preached was the true God who alone is to be worshipped and adored."
Yes Jesus is supposed to be only God's son so he is not God.
But on the other hand I have also heard that Jesus is the same God, just incarnated in human form.
Do you think that is incorrect? I've heard of the whole thing that the trinity is part of one whole God. And that Jesus IS 'the father' God.
Incarnated in human form. Is that not what you think? Do you think Jesus was just a man? Or that he was the son of God yet not an incarnation? Not God himself?
Reply
#32
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Yes Jesus is supposed to be only God's son so he is not God.
But on the other hand I have also heard that Jesus is the same God, just incarnated in human form.
Do you think that is incorrect? I've heard of the whole thing that the trinity is part of one whole God. And that Jesus IS 'the father' God.
Incarnated in human form. Is that not what you think? Do you think Jesus was just a man? Or that he was the son of God yet not an incarnation? Not God himself?

There is no real reason, other than religious nonsense, to teach or believe in the trinity. I don't believe in the Platonic trinity in any form. Jesus was just a man, but before that he had an heavenly existence as Michael. The Arch angel. Arch, by the way means one above the others (angels) and is always used in singular form. Jesus wan't Jehovah.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." - (1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The Encyclopedia Americana: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." - (1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

The Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J.'s Dictionary of the Bible: "The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - (New York, 1965), p. 899.
Reply
#33
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 28, 2008 at 11:32 pm)Daystar Wrote:
(November 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Yes Jesus is supposed to be only God's son so he is not God.
But on the other hand I have also heard that Jesus is the same God, just incarnated in human form.
Do you think that is incorrect? I've heard of the whole thing that the trinity is part of one whole God. And that Jesus IS 'the father' God.
Incarnated in human form. Is that not what you think? Do you think Jesus was just a man? Or that he was the son of God yet not an incarnation? Not God himself?

There is no real reason, other than religious nonsense, to teach or believe in the trinity. I don't believe in the Platonic trinity in any form. Jesus was just a man, but before that he had an heavenly existence as Michael. The Arch angel. Arch, by the way means one above the others (angels) and is always used in singular form. Jesus wan't Jehovah.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." - (1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The Encyclopedia Americana: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." - (1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

The Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J.'s Dictionary of the Bible: "The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." - (New York, 1965), p. 899.
Well thanks for clearing that up. I certainly think you are wise to not believe in the trinity and to think that Jesus was just a man.
What is your opinion of the "Holy Spirit" and its connection to God? And do you think it has a [spiritual] connection to Jesus? (Although as you have said you don't believe they are three parts of one God).
Reply
#34
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 28, 2008 at 5:32 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Luke, I did say when we die, we are dead, finito. I don't think we go to a place in the sky. We no longer exist! Thanks for the info on the dna. Smile
Ok, now I'm slightly confused. How can you claim to be a Christian, follow Intelligent Design, and yet not believe in Heaven / Hell? Doesn't it go directly against the teachings of your holy book?

Or perhaps I'm misunderstood your position on religion...
Reply
#35
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 29, 2008 at 5:42 am)Tiberius Wrote:
(November 28, 2008 at 5:32 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Luke, I did say when we die, we are dead, finito. I don't think we go to a place in the sky. We no longer exist! Thanks for the info on the dna. Smile
Ok, now I'm slightly confused. How can you claim to be a Christian, follow Intelligent Design, and yet not believe in Heaven / Hell? Doesn't it go directly against the teachings of your holy book?

Or perhaps I'm misunderstood your position on religion...
I guess when you don't interpret scripture literally you can believe and disbelieve whatever bits you like. Or you see fit. Cherry-pick or whatever.
Because the literal interpretation is the only really consistent one. And its obviously bullshit and a lot of it is immoral if you look at the old testament for instance.
With metaphorical interpretation and/or cherry-picking you can believe and/or disbelieve any number of the nonsense in the bible. You can make it fit.
With personal interpretation you can believe in God and Jesus and the holy spirit. Or only God and Jesus. And you can disbelieve heaven and hell.
And if by DEFINITION you are not a Christian because you don't even believe in Jesus, only God. And you think Jesus was just a man. Even if by definition you are not a Christian. You can still say you are, think you are , believe you are, claim you are and put yourself in that category. Even if others don't think you're Christian.
So basically how literal does a Christian's interpretation of the bible have to be? And how much does he have to believe in Jesus, God, the holy spirit, Satan and heaven and hell? To be a Christian? Where's the cut-off point?
When its about the definition of Christianity and someone claiming to be a Christian. What definition are we talking about? Who's definition?
Once more, where's the cut-off point?
And finally: How can we say that a Christian is someone who 'believes in Christ' when there are so many 'Christians' who it seems 'believe in Christ' who really only 'believe in BELIEF' in Christ. A lot don't believe in CHRIST like gravity. They have a belief like gravity that belief in Christ is a good belief to have. That faith can move mountains, and if they put their faith in God and Jesus then Jesus really is the son of God and God really is the Father.
Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
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#36
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 29, 2008 at 5:42 am)Tiberius Wrote:
(November 28, 2008 at 5:32 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Luke, I did say when we die, we are dead, finito. I don't think we go to a place in the sky. We no longer exist! Thanks for the info on the dna. Smile
Ok, now I'm slightly confused. How can you claim to be a Christian, follow Intelligent Design, and yet not believe in Heaven / Hell? Doesn't it go directly against the teachings of your holy book?

Or perhaps I'm misunderstood your position on religion...

The Bible doesn't teach that when we die we go to Heaven or Hell, except that the Hebrew sheohl and Greek Haides are translated as hell which simply means covered as in a common grave. The Bible teaches that when you die thats it. You are dead, not conscious. Until resurrection, not to heaven or hell but to Earth. There is a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. Believer and unbeliever.
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#37
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Yes
Jesus is supposed to be only God's son so he is not God.
But on the other hand I have also heard that Jesus is the same God, just incarnated in human form.
Do you think that is incorrect? I've heard of the whole thing that the trinity is part of one whole God. And that Jesus IS 'the father' God.
Incarnated in human form. Is that not what you think? Do you think Jesus was just a man? Or that he was the son of God yet not an incarnation? Not God himself?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

Jesus saith..."he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:9

"...And Thomas answered and said unto Jesus, My Lord and my God." John 20:28

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." John 17:5

Jesus saith... "I and my Father are ONE." John 10:30

"...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..." II Corinthians 4:4
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#38
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 29, 2008 at 10:44 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I guess when you don't interpret scripture literally you can believe and disbelieve whatever bits you like. Or you see fit. Cherry-pick or whatever.
Because the literal interpretation is the only really consistent one. And its obviously bullshit and a lot of it is immoral if you look at the old testament for instance.

Yeah. If you look at the old testament. Which you haven't. So you can't really say. Or would it be inconsitant for me to take that literally?

Look, we have been here before, EVF. I'm trying to help you with your argument. It is typical short sightedness of a Bible critic to complain about the literal / figurative issue. You can interpret anything literally or figuratively - however you want it. I could take your saying that a literal interpretation is the only consistent one as meaning that you think "God's word is all powerful and wonderful in its truth" if I wanted to but to do so wouldn't be correct and to repeat it would be slanderous.

In life, as in the Bible, there are things that are meant to be taken literally and others as figurative, like this for example ...

(November 29, 2008 at 10:54 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I can say that "there is no God" or I "Don't believe in God" but I wouldn't say "I KNOW there is No God" Or "I am CERTAIN there is no God". Unless I was half-joking. I CAN however, say that there is no God if I'm speaking de-facto scientifically. Its just annoying to repeatedly say that I believe that "there almost certainly is no God" but thats what I think really. When I say "There is no God" it would just be a shortening of that.
I would never say "I KNOW" or "I am CERTAIN" unless I wasn't speaking entirely literally and/or I was half-joking.

(November 29, 2008 at 12:37 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Well thanks for clearing that up. I certainly think you are wise to not believe in the trinity and to think that Jesus was just a man.
What is your opinion of the "Holy Spirit" and its connection to God? And do you think it has a [spiritual] connection to Jesus? (Although as you have said you don't believe they are three parts of one God).

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God's active force. It wasn't until the fourth century C.E. that the teaching of the holy spirit was a person and part of the "Godhead" became an official teaching.

Justin Martyr of the second century taught that the holy spirit was an 'influence or mode of operation of the Deity’ and Hippolytus taught likewise.

It should also be pointed out that in the some translations, such as the KJV at 1 John 5:7 there is a spurious addition to the orignal text which reads: "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"

The Jerusalem Bible, which is a Catholic translation, has a footnote on this addition which reads: "not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself." The Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716 - 718) actually traces in great detail the history of this spurious passage, saying it was first found in a treatise called Liver Apologeticus from the fourth century and points out it was also found in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures beginning in the sixth century.

More modern translations - both Catholic and Protestant don't include them in the main body of the text due to their spurious nature.
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#39
RE: Hello everyone!!
(November 29, 2008 at 10:56 am)Daystar Wrote:
(November 29, 2008 at 5:42 am)Tiberius Wrote:
(November 28, 2008 at 5:32 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Luke, I did say when we die, we are dead, finito. I don't think we go to a place in the sky. We no longer exist! Thanks for the info on the dna. Smile
Ok, now I'm slightly confused. How can you claim to be a Christian, follow Intelligent Design, and yet not believe in Heaven / Hell? Doesn't it go directly against the teachings of your holy book?

Or perhaps I'm misunderstood your position on religion...

The Bible doesn't teach that when we die we go to Heaven or Hell, except that the Hebrew sheohl and Greek Haides are translated as hell which simply means covered as in a common grave. The Bible teaches that when you die thats it. You are dead, not conscious. Until resurrection, not to heaven or hell but to Earth. There is a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. Believer and unbeliever.
Ok, so assuming what you say is true, nobody that has died has ever been resurrected? Are we now into the area of the rapture? Do these dead people get resurrected when JC returns? Or is that another misinterpretation of the Bible?
Reply
#40
RE: Hello everyone!!
Hi folks, this discussion is racing along.....

Daystar has explained my position as regards heaven and hell. It's not just about a literal translation of the Bible. Some parts are literal (which you can tell from context) and some have been mistranslated to convey pagan beliefs- hence 'hell'. I am holding out hope that I will be resurrected to life again one day. The rapture is another 'belief' that has been taken out of context. The word doesn't appear in the Bible. What is supposed to happen is that believers who are actually alive when Jesus returns, will not actually die but change into immortal beings and meet Jesus to go and reign with him in His government which will be established on earth. Jesus is the only one who has been resurrected to eternal life. (People who were resurrected by Jesus and the disciples still had to die a natural death). Hope this explains some things. Oh yes, I think the belief that we go to heaven comes from when Jesus says he will prepare a place for his disciples so that where He is they will be, but the Bible is clear that Jesus is coming back here to the earth and will reign here.....Smile
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"

Albert Einstein
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