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This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
#21
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 9, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(June 9, 2015 at 2:39 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Stop answering him, Brian is always looking for someone to argue, whether it's about ABBA, the placebo effect or how jews aren't a race ROFLOL

Jews are not a race, I agree with him on that. 

The entire point of living in a free society is the ability to question and disagree. 
What is a race then? And why do you get to decide?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#22
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 9, 2015 at 8:29 pm)Dystopia Wrote:
(June 9, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Jews are not a race, I agree with him on that. 

The entire point of living in a free society is the ability to question and disagree. 
What is a race then? And why do you get to decide?

I don't decide anything. "Race" is an artificial label people assign to other groups, it is a very divisive word and has nothing to do with our biological reality that we are all related as a species. DNA makes us related. Humans use stupid fucking labels to make them feel superior to others. The scientific reality is that we are all born, and we all die, and boarders and labels and skin tones do not prevent anyone from migrating and having sex with someone outside their social norms. Trace our species back far enough we are all related.
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#23
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
If our species manages not to kill ourselves off with pollution or war, and a meteor does not hit us, all our current social norms will either die out or morph so much in 5 thousand or 10 thousand years, we won't look the same at all, by word and even physically we will change to some degree. Mixing is what our species has always done. The word "race" does exist unfortunately, but even given that it does, there is still only one species. What should matter more than facial features and skin tones is knowing we are  the same species related through our common evolution.
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#24
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
The word race has little to do with separating us as a species, it's merely a form of categorizing humans not only due to physical appearance but historical background and culture... There is some biological foundation in race because some people are very likely/more to get certain diseases and there are noticeable physical differences that can only be explained by nature (like pigmentation, nose shape, etc.). If you don't think Jews are a race, then do you agree that everyone else (i.e. caucasians, africans, asians) are not a race? And why do you think a social construct is worth less just because it's a social construct?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#25
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 10, 2015 at 9:13 am)Dystopia Wrote: The word race has little to do with separating us as a species, it's merely a form of categorizing humans not only due to physical appearance but historical background and culture... There is some biological foundation in race because some people are very likely/more to get certain diseases and there are noticeable physical differences that can only be explained by nature (like pigmentation, nose shape, etc.). If you don't think Jews are a race, then do you agree that everyone else (i.e. caucasians, africans, asians) are not a race? And why do you think a social construct is worth less just because it's a social construct?

Still not my point. You and I understand that DNA can show migration patterns and stats on traits and disease, but that isn't the core of why laypeople speak in those terms. Race is a divisive word stemming from our species tribalism and group survival. The more humans that understand this, the better we can see that we really are stuck on details rather than seeing our common evolution.

Because social constructs change over time, and lack an evolutionary understanding of why our species behaves the way we do.  It is our species ignorance that long term none of us are more important than the other and just like other life in the past, our species will eventually go extinct. 

Nowhere did I say humans are worthless, don't make assumptions about my posts. I am saying in cosmic terms long term none of this matters. Once you accept that, what does become important is the time we have now, not the differences that we group around. 

Jews were not the first humans, Native Americans migrated from the other continents, go back far enough our species started out in Africa. Go even further back we are related to other primates. What matters, our should matter isn't clinging to the past, although remembering human history is important so that we can improve, what matters is how we as a species move forward.

Humans have always migrated and mixed. There is nothing stopping a white person from having sex and making a baby with a black person. There is nothing stopping an Indian from migrating to America and Marrying a Jew(outside maybe family pressures, but certainly not biologically if both are healthy. I was myself married to a Japanese women, although we didn't have a kid, we could have. 

No human by proxy of label has any special powers or super powers. When humans talk of race and nationalism, religion and culture, they are merely reflecting their own social norms, they are not special however to evolution, evolution has not produced humans that live forever. The dinosaurs had a long time on this planet but they went extinct and humans will as well at some point.
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#26
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
I suspect the truth about 'race' is somewhere in the middle.  'Race' is a sloppy term to describe the physical varieties of H. sapiens, no argument.  Human beings are human beings, full stop.  37 makes the excellent point that males of any human variety can successfully breed with females of any human variety, and produce viable offspring.

But to deny that there are physical differences - important ones - between the different kinds of human animals is absurd.  For example, my deficiency of eumelanin would make it tougher for me to survive in a desert environment than a Saharan African.  Similarly, certain genetic diseases (SCD, for instance) are more associated with certain genetic lineages than with others.

This issue could probably be solved if people would agree on a term other than 'race' to describe different types of humans.  However, no one seems to want to opt for words like 'breed'.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#27
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 9, 2015 at 7:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: OK, so the objections to Pope Francis seem to be: 

-He's trying to spread Catholicism.

-He's against gay marriage and homosexual acts.

-He's anti-abortion, anti-birth control, and pro-religion.

-He rejects some aspects of science that don't fit comfortably with his faith.

-He doesn't like it when people pick on religion.

Odd how the cardinals picked a Catholic to head the Catholic church.  Criticizing the Pope for the points noted above is somewhat like criticizing a dog for being able to bark, or bitching that trees are made of wood.

Boru

Not to speak for Brian, but I think his issue isn't that, *gasp!*, the Pope is Catholic, but rather that his image is very carefully and cleverly shaped to appeal to a younger, more progressive audience.  He comes across as a nice guy who speaks about wage disparity and the environment and other things that resonate with that audience, which is a far cry from John Paul part Deux and Darth Benedict.

It's clever marketing, and Brian seems to want to ensure that people aren't suckered into thinking that the church has actually changed.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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#28
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 10, 2015 at 6:37 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I suspect the truth about 'race' is somewhere in the middle.  'Race' is a sloppy term to describe the physical varieties of H. sapiens, no argument.  Human beings are human beings, full stop.  37 makes the excellent point that males of any human variety can successfully breed with females of any human variety, and produce viable offspring.

But to deny that there are physical differences - important ones - between the different kinds of human animals is absurd.  For example, my deficiency of eumelanin would make it tougher for me to survive in a desert environment than a Saharan African.  Similarly, certain genetic diseases (SCD, for instance) are more associated with certain genetic lineages than with others.

This issue could probably be solved if people would agree on a term other than 'race' to describe different types of humans.  However, no one seems to want to opt for words like 'breed'.

Boru

"Breed" Holy fuck that is even worse than the term "race". Smacks of classism. I understand that differences exist because that is what evolution does and what makes it work. But our species dividing and sub dividing based on labels will not change that we are the same species. Human is the only word I care about and how someone treats me. 
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#29
RE: This former Catholic will blast Pope OP/ED
(June 10, 2015 at 7:01 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:
(June 9, 2015 at 7:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: OK, so the objections to Pope Francis seem to be: 

-He's trying to spread Catholicism.

-He's against gay marriage and homosexual acts.

-He's anti-abortion, anti-birth control, and pro-religion.

-He rejects some aspects of science that don't fit comfortably with his faith.

-He doesn't like it when people pick on religion.

Odd how the cardinals picked a Catholic to head the Catholic church.  Criticizing the Pope for the points noted above is somewhat like criticizing a dog for being able to bark, or bitching that trees are made of wood.

Boru

Not to speak for Brian, but I think his issue isn't that, *gasp!*, the Pope is Catholic, but rather that his image is very carefully and cleverly shaped to appeal to a younger, more progressive audience.  He comes across as a nice guy who speaks about wage disparity and the environment and other things that resonate with that audience, which is a far cry from John Paul part Deux and Darth Benedict.

It's clever marketing, and Brian seems to want to ensure that people aren't suckered into thinking that the church has actually changed.

Thats it right there. No different than knowing the new Walmart add campaigns touting how much they value workers is a load of crap. You don't fault the people who work there, but the higher up any institution you go marketing sells.
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