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Miracle
#71
RE: Miracle
Quote:I had given you a solid evidence that although people were observing how skin burns yet they were not considering it as important factor in the pain mechanism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pain_theory

Quranic verses are incredibly accurate in mentioning principal scientific concepts without giving intricate details. No human was able to construe these facts in 7th century. The purpose of these scientific facts is not to educate people but to manifest authenticity of the concept that Quran is the word of God and not the word of man.
The quran is describing the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns and you can't prove people in Muhammad's time didn't know about these symptoms.

Let me go into further detail on this now...


Quote:Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.


1)  None of this contradicts anything in the history of the understanding of pain. So when you keep posting that link and saying you have given evidence you haven't. The quran is saying burning skin hurts, and repetitively burning skin hurts even more.  People all through the ages have known this.

2) The verse isn't saying that when the flesh is burned there will be no sensation of pain again because the pain receptors are damaged, what it is simply saying is that god will repetitively burn this persons flesh.
If you assume that this verse is giving you information that there will be so sensation of pain again because the receptors are damaged THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION

3)  The body contains pain receptors on more than just the skin, so someone who had their flesh burned through could still feel pain if the fire burned through to other internal organs that sense pain.  There's no specific accuracy there. 

4)  The skin not feeling pain once it is burned is a symptom of 3rd and 4th degree burns, as I've previously mentioned you have provided no proof that the people in Muhammad's time had no knowledge of 3rd or 4th degree burns and I firmly believe that the people in Muhammad's time certainly did have the knowledge to write this verse and you haven't proven otherwise.

5)    So even IF the verse is talking about the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns it is still no miracle yet there are other options of what the quran may be talking about.  In this translation of the quran it says when the skins are consumed by the fire god will replace them.  You need no scientific knowledge to know that once something is consumed by the fire and destroyed it will no longer feel pain, once skin is melted away it's no longer there, no longer a part of the body and can no longer feel pain.  That's also something else the quran could be talking about and if you think otherwise then again it is an assumption.

6)  If you want to talk about the technicalities of burning someone and their pain sensation this verse is very inaccurate, if you throw someone in a fire and only replace their flesh everytime it is burned they will still eventually feel no pain because their internal organs will be too hot and they will die causing them to feel no pain anyway, no matter how much you continually burn their flesh and replace it.
The verse would make more sense if god had said he will replace their entire body when it is burned, if he is only replacing the flesh it doesn't work.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#72
RE: Miracle
Quote:Suppose you are some powerful king and your people have fetched you some men who have broken some supreme laws on purpose. You have full authority to punish them or to let them go free. To some you announce punishments and some of them you let go free after giving warnings. This act will show your wisdom and compassionate characteristic.

However, you will not punish your peaceful citizens who live by abiding the laws because you are not a tyrant ruler who love to have fun with people’s lives.



Ok, but the verse I showed you says that god will misguide who he want's to misguide.  As a powerful compassionate king I wouldn't want to misguide anyone.  That is the difference between me and a sadistic tyrannical god. 
So did I still quote the quran out of context?  Let me ask you this, do you believe Allah misguides people, considering the quran says that Allah misguides who he wants to misguide I'd be tempted to believe that you do believe Allah misguides people.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#73
RE: Miracle
(July 2, 2015 at 7:31 am)Neimenovic Wrote:
(July 2, 2015 at 7:28 am)bennyboy Wrote: It's TOTALLY there.  Can't you see it?

Oh, THERE! Right between the verses it isn't in and more verses it isn't in! Silly me, missed it completely

NOW you're getting it! Smile
Reply
#74
RE: Miracle
Quote:5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)
You just picked a translation that suits the "Miracle".
I can provide proof that the other translations of this verse have nothing to do with anything being "Sent down."
Quote:and He revealed iron, wherein is mighty power

Quote: And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power
Quote:and We have made the iron, wherein is great violence and advantages to men

And I can also prove that the part of the verse before this which you have left out reveals that the quran does not use the term "Sent down" to mean anything at all to do with space or meteorites or anything scientific.


Quote:We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron,
This proves that using the language of the quran "Sent down" basically means provided by god, or revealed by god.
Unless that is you want to claim that the messengers of god and their scriptures were sent down by meteorites aswell?
This verse says basically that god sent messengers, and with them he sent down scriptures, and he sent down iron.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#75
RE: Miracle
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you're conflating the idea of "miracles" with the idea of being able to draw parallels between science and scripture. Your argument doesn't make a lot of cohesive sense.

You prattle on for a while about how miracles are said to not exist in the natural universe. You then claim you will make a case for the existence of miracles, then you go on to instead use your confirmation bias to make science agree with your holy book...a line of discussion which, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with miracles one way or another.

If you really want to prove that miracles exist, all you have to do is show us one. Just one. Even a little one. It just has to be a legitimate divine occurrence. If your gods could do all those tricks before science was watching, why can't they do them now? If they do, where is the evidence?
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
Reply
#76
RE: Miracle
Redbeard, I saw a post you did with all bold in another thread that was a little more readable for me. Would you mind bolding your posts? I think if I adjust my screen, I will be able to read them. Now, I have to copy and paste to Word.

I'd argue the existence of physics could be called a miracle, since it cannot itself be expressed in any of the physical terms by which we judge something true or even existent. For any given framework by which normalcy is established, in fact, I'd say there must either be something which is supernormal, or something which is paradoxical.
Reply
#77
RE: Miracle
(July 2, 2015 at 7:28 am)bennyboy Wrote: Neimenovic Wrote: You know what muslims in the 7th century could use? The germ theory. Where is it in the quran?

Bennyboy Wrote: It's TOTALLY there. Can't you see it?

By contravening the continuity of discussion, you would not get any opportunity to change the topic or escape the reality. So far, you failed to bring your counter argument. You are laughing on your own self.

“Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.”
At Taubah (9)
-Verse 82-

“But on this Day (the Day of Resurrection) the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:”
Al Muthaffif (83)
-Verse 34-

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: The quran is describing the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns and you can't prove people in Muhammad's time didn't know about these symptoms.

Irrespective of the symptoms, people in the past were not considering skin as blameworthy for that nasty burning sensation.

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: Let me go into further detail on this now...

Quote:Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

1) None of this contradicts anything in the history of the understanding of pain. So when you keep posting that link and saying you have given evidence you haven't. The quran is saying burning skin hurts, and repetitively burning skin hurts even more. People all through the ages have known this.

However, people discerned brain as generator of pain with or without skin in the past, which was a false perception.

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: 2) The verse isn't saying that when the flesh is burned there will be no sensation of pain again because the pain receptors are damaged, what it is simply saying is that god will repetitively burn this persons flesh.

Here is your another attempt to change the meaning by misinterpreting the verse. The word “FLESH” does not exist in the verse it only mentions the word “SKIN.”

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their SKINS are roasted through, We shall change them for FRESH SKINS, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

God will repetitively burn the SKIN by replacing the roasted SKIN with the new one.

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: If you assume that this verse is giving you information that there will be no sensation of pain again because the receptors are damaged THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION

After 3rd or 4th degree burn patient does not feel any pain. This is not an assumption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: 3) The skin not feeling pain once it is burned is a symptom of 3rd and 4th degree burns, as I've previously mentioned you have provided no proof that the people in Muhammad's time had no knowledge of 3rd or 4th degree burns and I firmly believe that the people in Muhammad's time certainly did have the knowledge to write this verse and you haven't proven otherwise.

4) So even IF the verse is talking about the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns it is still no miracle yet there are other options of what the quran may be talking about. In this translation of the quran it says when the skins are consumed by the fire god will replace them. You need no scientific knowledge to know that once something is consumed by the fire and destroyed it will no longer feel pain, once skin is melted away it's no longer there, no longer a part of the body and can no longer feel pain. That's also something else the quran could be talking about and if you think otherwise then again it is an assumption.

Anaxagoras who died in 428 B.C., believed all sensations were associated with pain, and the more the subject and object are unlike, the more intense the pain which was perceived in the brain.

In contrast his contemporary Empedocles believes the capacity for all sensation especially pain and pleasure, was located in the heart's blood. Hippocrates believed pain was due to one of the four basic vital humors (blood, phlegm, yellow bile, and black bile) being deficient or in excess and wrote of trepanation as a means of releasing the pain. He also used willow bark (contains salicylate) as an analgesic.

Plato who died in 347 B.C. believed that sensation resulted from the movement of atoms communicating through the veins to the heart and liver, which were the centres for appreciation of all sensation. The brain was thought of as an accessory organ in interpreting these sensations. Plato noted pain and pleasure were opposites, with the production of pleasure occurring on the elimination of pain.

Aristotle who died in 322 B.C. elaborated further on Plato's concepts. He distinguished the five senses. For Aristotle the brain had no direct function in sensory processes for the heart was the centre of all sensory perception. Aristotle believed the brains function was to produce cool secretions, which cooled the hot air and blood arising from the heart. Pain was an increase in one of the 5 senses, especially touch. Pain was caused by excess of vital heat. Like touch, pain arose in the end organs of the flesh and was conveyed by blood to the heart. Aristotle's subsequent successors cast serious doubts on their master’s views.

However anatomical evidence that the brain was part of the nervous system was not demonstrated until 50 to 75 years later by Herophilus (335- 280 BC) and Erasistratus (310-250 BC). These philosophers noted that nerves attach to the spinal cord were two kinds: those for movement and those for feeling.

In Western countries, the description of pain appeared for the first time in Homer’s epics, the Iliad and the Odyssey, from around the 8th century BC in ancient Greece. However, the brain was not believed to be the seat of pain sensation until the Renaissance (14th–17th centuries) when systematic autopsies were carried out by Andreas Vesalius (1514–1564).
These facts give sufficient evidence that although people in 7th century had no difficulties in comprehending pain associated with burns yet they had no clue that skin is a primary generator of burning sensation. They had no idea that in the absence of skin brain has no ability to feel the burn.

(July 2, 2015 at 7:33 am)paulpablo Wrote: 1) The body contains pain receptors on more than just the skin, so someone who had their flesh burned through could still feel pain if the fire burned through to other internal organs that sense pain. There's no specific accuracy there.

6)  If you want to talk about the technicalities of burning someone and their pain sensation this verse is very inaccurate, if you throw someone in a fire and only replace their flesh everytime it is burned they will still eventually feel no pain because their internal organs will be too hot and they will die causing them to feel no pain anyway, no matter how much you continually burn their flesh and replace it.
The verse would make more sense if god had said he will replace their entire body when it is burned, if he is only replacing the flesh it doesn't work.


If in some unfortunate accident a person is caught by the fire then which part of the body you think get exposed to the fire first. SKIN. Until fire find its way to internal organs, the unfortunate person might not be living anymore.

Of course, there are some internal organs, which have the capacity to give unbearable burning sensation. For example:

Intestines are not affected by heat. However, if they are severed with boiling water then the water flows to a place between the peritoneum and the outer layer of the intestines, the place that contains dense nerve endings, which are capable to transmit intense signals to the brain and thus cause an experience of atrocious pain.

This scientific fact is also present in Quran.

Verily the tree of Zaqqum
Will be the food of the Sinful,-
Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides.
Like the boiling of scalding water.
Ad Dukhaan (44)
-Verses 43 – 46

(July 2, 2015 at 7:39 am)paulpablo Wrote: Ok, but the verse I showed you says that god will misguide who he want's to misguide. As a powerful compassionate king I wouldn't want to misguide anyone. That is the difference between me and a sadistic tyrannical god.

So did I still quote the quran out of context? Let me ask you this, do you believe Allah misguides people, considering the quran says that Allah misguides who he wants to misguide I'd be tempted to believe that you do believe Allah misguides people.


In Quran, wherever there is a phrase “Allah misguides people” or something similar to it that is obviously for people who are transgressors and intentionally go against the laws of God in their arrogance. I had made this point clear in my example of wise King and his peaceful nation.

For example, same sex marriage is against the human nature. A person should be rebellious to divine laws in order to cross the limits for engaging himself/herself in homosexual activities. I do not know any scripture that has not condemned this act.

(July 3, 2015 at 2:32 am)paulpablo Wrote: “…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

You just picked a translation that suits the "Miracle".

I can provide proof that the other translations of this verse have nothing to do with anything being "Sent down."

Quote:and He revealed iron, wherein is mighty power

Quote: And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power

Quote:and We have made the iron, wherein is great violence and advantages to men

And I can also prove that the part of the verse before this which you have left out reveals that the quran does not use the term "Sent down" to mean anything at all to do with space or meteorites or anything scientific.

Quote:We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron,

This proves that using the language of the quran "Sent down" basically means provided by god, or revealed by god.

Unless that is you want to claim that the messengers of god and their scriptures were sent down by meteorites as well?

This verse says basically that god sent messengers, and with them he sent down scriptures, and he sent down iron.

Do you know Arabic or fabricating your guestimates based on different translations only? If your first language is Arabic than whole of your argument is no more than a gibberish. If you do not know Arabic then you should consult with your Arabic Professor first before you jump over to craft your critique.

The verse in its original Arabic language is:

لَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَنزَلْنَا مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ النَّاسُ بِالْقِسْطِ وَأَنزَلْنَا الْحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأْسٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ وَرُسُلَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَوِيٌّ عَزِيز

Here I give some English translations of this verse, which you can easily find on internet.

Sherali:
Verily, WE sent Our Messengers with manifest Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may act with justice; AND WE SENT DOWN IRON, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind, and that ALLAH may know those who help HIM and HIS Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, ALLAH is Powerful, Mighty.

Khan:
Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (justice) that mankind may keep up justice. And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power (in matters of war), as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help Him (His religion), and His Messengers in the unseen. Verily, Allah is All- Strong, All-Mighty.

Pickthal:
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance, that mankind may observe right measure; and He revealed iron, wherein is mighty power and (many) uses for mankind, and that Allah may know him who helpeth Him and His messengers, though unseen. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.

Rashad:
We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs, and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice. AND WE SENT DOWN THE IRON, wherein there is strength, and many benefits for the people. All this in order for GOD to distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers, on faith. GOD is Powerful, Almighty.

Maulana:
Certainly We sent Our messengers with clear arguments, and sent down with them the Book and the measure, that men may conduct themselves with equity. AND WE SENT DOWN IRON, wherein is great violence and advantages to men, and that Allah may know who helps Him and His messengers, unseen. Surely Allah is Strong, Mighty

Sarwar:
We sent Our Messengers with clear evidence (to support their truthfulness), and sent with them the Book and the Balance so that people would maintain justice. WE SENT DOWN IRON - in which there is strong power and benefit for the people - so that God would know who would help Him and His Messenger without seeing the unseen. God is All-powerful and Majestic.

Shakir:
Certainly We sent Our messengers with clear arguments, and sent down with them the Book and the balance that men may conduct themselves with equity; and We have made the iron, wherein is great violence and advantages to men, and that Allah may know who helps Him and His messengers in the secret; surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.

Yusufali:
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; AND WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

Omar:
Certainly, We sent Our Messengers with clear proofs and We (also) sent down with them the Code (of Sharî`at - law and justice) and the Balance (- the practice of the Prophet and right use of the Book of God) so that people might conduct themselves with equity and justice. And We have given (to them) iron (which has great strength and) wherein is (material for) violent warfare and for many (other) uses for mankind. All this has been done that Allâh may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Indeed Allâh is All-Powerful, All- Mighty.

Ahmed:
We have surely sent apostles with clear signs, and sent with them the Book and the Balance, so that men may stand by justice; AND WE SENT DOWN IRON which causes much distress but also has advantages for men, so that God may know who helps Him and His apostles in secret. Verily God is all-powerful and all-mighty.

Aziz:
Certainly We sent Our messengers with clear arguments, and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that men may conduct themselves with equity; AND WE HAVE SENT DOWN IRON, wherein is mighty power (or War) and advantages to men, and that Allah may know who helps Him and His messengers in secret (unseen or in his heart); surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.

Daryabadi:
Assuredly We sent Our apostles with evidences, and We sent down With them the book and the balance, that people might observe equity. AND WE SENT DOWN IRON wherein is great violence and also advantages Unto mankind, and that Allah may know him who succoureth Him, unseen, and His apostles. Verily Allah is Strong, Mighty.

Haque:
Indeed We sent Our Noble Messengers with proofs, and sent down the Book and the Balance of Justice along with them, so that people may stay upon justice; AND WE SENT DOWN IRON having severe heat and benefits for mankind, and so that Allah may see him, who without seeing aides Him and His Noble Messengers; indeed Allah is Almighty, Dominant.

Unal:
Assuredly We have sent Our Messengers with manifest truths (and clear proofs of their being Messengers), and We have sent down with them the Book and the Balance so that (relations among) humankind may live by equity. AND WE HAVE SENT DOWN IRON in which is stern might and benefits for humankind, so that God may mark out those who help (the cause of) God and His Messengers, though they do not see Him. Surely God is All-Strong, All-Glorious with irresistible might.

Asad:
Indeed, [even aforetime] did We send forth Our apostles with all evidence of [this] truth; and through them We bestowed revelation from on high, and [thus gave you] a balance [wherewith to weigh right and wrong], so that men might behave with equity; and We bestowed [upon you] from on high [the ability to make use of] iron, in which there is awesome power as well as [a source of] benefits for man and [all this was given to you] so that God might mark out those who would stand up for him and His Apostle, even though He [Himself] is beyond the reach of human perception.

Out of fifteen translations, ten authors have used the phrase SENT DOWN, which is correct.

For further verification, check yourself the English translation of the word   أَنزْلْنَا   in any Arabic-English dictionary. Giving you few links

https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT

http://translation.babylon.com/

http://www.lexicool.com/arabic-dictionar...lation.asp

You simply copy   أَنزْلْنَا   and past it in any translation engine.

Next time if you decide to read Quran in English then go for the translation by Yusuf Ali. It is considered as one of the most convincing English translation of Quran. You can download it from this link:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...2980,d.bGg

Coming on to your second denunciation:

(July 3, 2015 at 2:32 am)paulpablo Wrote: “This proves that using the language of the quran "Sent down" basically means provided by god, or revealed by god.

Unless that is you want to claim that the messengers of god and their scriptures were sent down by meteorites as well?”

You cannot twist the reality merely by twisting your tongue. When God sends something, He sends it down by using His Angles, by using meteorites, by giving inspiration, or by any other mean He wishes to use.

(July 3, 2015 at 2:32 am)paulpablo Wrote: “This verse says basically that god sent messengers, and with them he sent down scriptures, and he sent down iron.”

True. So, what troubles you in this part.

(July 3, 2015 at 4:04 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you're conflating the idea of "miracles" with the idea of being able to draw parallels between science and scripture. Your argument doesn't make a lot of cohesive sense.

You prattle on for a while about how miracles are said to not exist in the natural universe. You then claim you will make a case for the existence of miracles, then you go on to instead use your confirmation bias to make science agree with your holy book...a line of discussion which, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with miracles one way or another.

Simply give a try to explain how following verses appeared in 7th century Quran.


Big Bang
“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

Metric expansion of space
“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47

(July 3, 2015 at 4:04 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: If you really want to prove that miracles exist, all you have to do is show us one. Just one. Even a little one. It just has to be a legitimate divine occurrence. If your gods could do all those tricks before science was watching, why can't they do them now? If they do, where is the evidence?

The demand for a miracle is one of the oldest characteristic that unbelievers of all times exhibited.

“Then some of the experts in the law along with some Pharisees answered him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

“But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”

Matt chapter 12 verses 38 & 39
NET

Let me repeat the meaning of miracle:

An extraordinary and welcome event, which is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency

A miracle is an event that is inexplicable by natural or scientific laws, an act beyond human powers, and an impossibility.  

Therefore, the greater the impossibility the greater the miracle will be.

The unbelievers of Mecca as you are had also demanded a miracle from Prophet Mohammad. God has responded to that demand in Quran because after you there will be more unbelivers.

“And they say: "Why are not Signs (miracles) sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The signs are indeed with Allah and I am indeed a clear Warner."”

“And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book (the Miracle) which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.”

Al 'Ankabuut (29)
-Verses 50 & 51 -

These verses drawing attention of the unbelievers towards Quran saying look at the book (Quran) the book IS THE MIRACLE.

I had given only few scientific facts and an evidence that Quran is miraculously easy to learn so much so that millions of people have memorised it even without knowing Arabic language.

Not only these facts but the whole Quran is a miracle. I can give many other facts out from Quran to which there is no explanation on how those facts appeared in Quran in 7th century.

See, what a Christian Reverend is writing about Quran.

“By a fortune absolutely unique in history, Mohammed is a threefold founder—' of a nation, of an empire, and of a religion.' Illiterate himself, scarcely able to read or write, he was yet the author of a book which is a poem, a code of laws, a Book of Common Prayer, and a Bible in one, and is reverenced to this day by a sixth of the whole human race as a miracle of purity of style, of wisdom, and of truth. It was the one miracle claimed by Mohammed— his “standing miracle” he called it ; AND A MIRACLE INDEED IT IS.”

Page 290
Mohammed and Mohammedanism
By E. Bosworth Smith, M.A.
Assistant-Master in Harrow School
Late Fellow of Trinity College, Oxford (1889)

(July 3, 2015 at 4:04 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

(Matt 7:1 [NET])
“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

(Matt 7:2 [NET])
For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive.

(Matt 7:3 [NET])
Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own?

(Matt 7:4 [NET])
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own?

(Matt 7:5 [NET])
You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

(Matt 7:6 [NET])
Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces.

Arrogance is the Hallmark of Atheism.
Reply
#78
RE: Miracle
Quote:Irrespective of the symptoms, people in the past were not considering skin as blameworthy for that nasty burning sensation.

If you kick me in my balls I will know I've felt pain, I won't know the exact scientific mechanism for this, but I will know that what you have done has hurt and I'll crouch over and probably yell something like "AAAAAAHHHHH YOU JUST KICKED ME IN THE BALLS."
I'm not likely to stand there and say "Well according to my scientific knowledge of the testes I have no reason to be in pain right now.

It doesn't matter if they thought the brain was responsible for pain it doesn't matter if they thought the dog next door was responsible for origin of pain, the quran does NOT say if the brain is responsible or if the skin is responsible, it simply says burning of the skin hurts, and allah will replace the skin once it has been burned through in order for it to hurt again. People in the past knew that burning hurt.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#79
RE: Miracle
Quote:After 3rd or 4th degree burn patient does not feel any pain. This is not an assumption.

This has nothing to do with what I said in anyway shape or form.  First of all you're wrong, burn patients feel pain just not in the area they suffered the burn.  Second of all I didn't say that you were assuming that 3rd or 4th degree burn patients don't feel pain.  I'll copy and paste what I previously said WITH the important part you missed out underlined and in bold.



If you assume that this verse is giving you information that there will be no sensation of pain again because the receptors are damaged THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
#80
RE: Miracle
Quote:Here is your another attempt to change the meaning by misinterpreting the verse. The word “FLESH” does not exist in the verse it only mentions the word “SKIN.”
I typed flesh instead of skin, just replace the word flesh with skin in what I typed and my point still remains.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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