The right to mis-define oneself

[Longhorn]

Define black. What is black? How black is black enough for you? Can you demonstrate it's anything more than skin tone?

How much melanin does one need to have to be black?

Well, when we say "black," we mean someone who has at least some African DNA, i.e. the African DNA of a few hundred years ago, not some residual DNA from a few hundred thousand. So I'd say to be "black," you need a non-zero amount of that DNA. Getting your hair crimped and applying a tanning agent is not sufficient.

Africa is extremely genetically diverse. What about people who have African ancestors but are light skinned? are they black too?

and can you demonstrate it's anything more than a skin tone?

oh, and I have a request. before you post anything more on the subject of transgendered people, please read this:

http://transwhat.org/debunked/

[Iroscato]

Many trans women proudly label themselves TRANSwomen and not just "women". Identifying as a woman doesn't necessarily mean identifying with stereotypes. It just means she wants to be a woman.

And I want to be a pro basketball player.  I feel I'm the next Michael Jordan, but I'm trapped in a slow, clumsy white boy's body.  Maybe I should sue the NBA for not recruiting me.

Have you ever actually MET any transgender individuals? Because your ignorance is showing, you may want to put it back in its box.

[KUSA]

I'm waiting to see someone that is both transgendered and transracial.

Imagine if Bruce Jenner saw himself not as Caitlin but as Waneesa.

[bennyboy]

Well, when we say "black," we mean someone who has at least some African DNA, i.e. the African DNA of a few hundred years ago, not some residual DNA from a few hundred thousand.  So I'd say to be "black," you need a non-zero amount of that DNA.  Getting your hair crimped and applying a tanning agent is not sufficient.

Africa is extremely genetically diverse. What about people who have African ancestors but are light skinned? are they black too?

If the African ancestors were black, and not (for example) Dutch or British, then I think they are black in the sense that word is normally used in the U.S. I believe the woman in the OP was representing the NAACP, where "C" means "colored," and does not generally refer to the colors white or pink.

[bennyboy]

Have you ever actually MET any transgender individuals? Because your ignorance is showing, you may want to put it back in its box.

I lived on the streets of Vancouver for several years as a teen, so yes, I've met transgender individuals. I almost kissed one once, but a few too many whiskers showed up through the makeup under the streetlights.

I do not like the liberal technique of branding anyone ignorant who doesn't agree that words can mean whatever you want them to if someone's feelings are involved. I'm not ignorant of gender issues, identity issues, of brain and hormonal differences that affect feelings, etc. I know how some of these developments begin in the womb. When you say I'm ignorant, I believe you are saying, "You're ignorant, because you don't accept what everyone these days knows should be accepted." That's not ignorance-- it's disagreement.

I'm not talking about whether people should be accepted or respected. I'm talking about whether people get to declare that they are what they are not. I can't just get a tan and dreadlocks and start telling everyone I'm an African prince. Because I'm not one, and reality matters.

[Longhorn]

I'm not talking about whether people should be accepted or respected. I'm talking about whether people get to declare that they are what they are not. I can't just get a tan and dreadlocks and start telling everyone I'm an African prince. Because I'm not one, and reality matters.

I agree. But if as you claim you're not ignorant of transgender issues, then don't bring them up in this discussion. They're irrelevant. Transgenders are not declaring themselves something they aren't, rather they are recognizing what they are.

It's equating being transgendered to the Dolezal case I'm arguing about.

[bennyboy]

I'm not talking about whether people should be accepted or respected.  I'm talking about whether people get to declare that they are what they are not.  I can't just get a tan and dreadlocks and start telling everyone I'm an African prince.  Because I'm not one, and reality matters.

I agree. But if as you claim you're not ignorant of transgender issues, then don't bring them up in this discussion. They're irrelevant. Transgenders are not declaring themselves something they aren't, rather they are recognizing what they are.

It's equating being transgendered to the Dolezal case I'm arguing about.

Okay, I'll concede that.  In my defense, you'll see that a couple pages back, I directly stated that gender issues are more complex, as gender identity is largely psychological.  Race, however, is normally used to refer to the geographic and/or genetic background of a person.  That being said, I think a person with a complex gender identity should be described multi-axially: genetics, physical makeup, and psychological identification.  Jenner, for example, was clearly born male, is currently mixed male/female anatomically (if you accept silicone breasts as "real"), and clearly is not a typical male psychologically.  In a sense, you could say he's all of male, female, both and neither.

I think trying to squeeze the many gender-definining characteristics into a single label is the source of most of the sour grapes about Jenner and other transgender people. But my point of contention isn't what someone identifies as: it's whether someone is allowed to impose their view or definition of a word on other members of the society. Does the fact that Caitlyn wants to be seen as a woman automatically mean that everyone else has to pretend Caitlyn is as much a woman as, say, your mom?

[SteelCurtain]

This issue and transgendered people are apples and oranges. This is someone claiming they are something they're objectively not, and a transgender person is someone choosing to identify with what they objectively are. fMRI scans have shown clear brain structure and pathway differences for transgendered patients. A FtM's brain is more closely wired like a man's, and vice versa. This is not demanding a label. This is accepting what your brain has been hammering you with since you were as young as 5.

You saying you understand this topic is belied by your comparisons and your conflation of gender dysphoria with cross dressing or femininity. It's neither. Gender is different than sex.

This is a new issue, though, in the national spotlight. I agree that the PC Police demanding correct pronouns and slamming anyone who doesn't comply immediately doesn't help anything. My question is always, once you know someone is dealing with this, why not call them what they ask you to call them? The only reasons not to are either the ick factor or acting intentional.

[Longhorn]

Okay, I'll concede that.  In my defense, you'll see that a couple pages back, I directly stated that gender issues are more complex, as gender identity is largely psychological.  Race, however, is normally used to refer to the geographic and/or genetic background of a person.  That being said, I think a person with a complex gender identity should be described multi-axially: genetics, physical makeup, and psychological identification.  Jenner, for example, was clearly born male, is currently mixed male/female anatomically (if you accept silicone breasts as "real"), and clearly is not a typical male psychologically.  In a sense, you could say he's all of male, female, both and neither.

I'd say she's a female in all ways except for the strictly biological sense-physical appearance and genetics, but even her brain is structured differently to a male

I think trying to squeeze the many gender-definining characteristics into a single label is the source of most of the sour grapes about Jenner and other transgender people. But my point of contention isn't what someone identifies as: it's whether someone is allowed to impose their view or definition of a word on other members of the society. Does the fact that Caitlyn wants to be seen as a woman automatically mean that everyone else has to pretend Caitlyn is as much a woman as, say, your mom?

What characteristics are those? As I said, it's nothing to do with stereotypes, gender roles or interests

Define 'has to'. I really don't know what you mean. She is female. She isn't 'imposing' anything on anybody. You're not forced to refer to her as female. She's simply being honest with people about who she is, don't you think she has the right to do that?

Also, as you can read in the link I gave you, gender dysphoria means extreme discomfort and using the wrong pronouns is pretty hurtful. It's not some sort of obligation, just not being an asshole.

[bennyboy]

Define 'has to'. I really don't know what you mean. She is female. She isn't 'imposing' anything on anybody.

If she chooses to go to a public instituion which allows nudity, like a changing room in a gym, then what? Should other women have to put up with the sight of her penis flopping around in the ladies' changing room? What if she decides to start dating, and she takes a man back to her place? Should the man, upon discovering her penis, accept that she is a woman anyway?

What if she has a sex change, and doesn't tell prospective male sex partners her history?

I think transgender woman works fine, and I'm fine with "she." But Jenner is not female in many of the ways that this word is normally used. That's a statement of physical reality and simple semantic awareness.