Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[abaris]

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

1) Unsupported claim. Maybe, maybe not. Not a fact.
2) Claim. What we do know is, his later followers believed that it's true. We don't even know if the disciples existed. Not a fact.
3) Or was he? Again claim. Not a fact.
4) Since the historicity of Jesus is up for debate, his brother's existence falls even more into the same category. So, claim. Not a fact.
5) Assuming he existed, assuming he even had a tomb, given the historical reality of criminals being left to rot on the cross. So, claim. Not a fact.

[Nope]

Sorry Randy but I'm going to talk about you and not to you.

Why do so many of you engage this person? My belief is that you are reinforcing his/her delusions, one of fantasy and one of grandeur.

Most people that enter this forum enjoy debating theists. Randy obviously wants to debate us.

[Coreni]

Its likely that they might have imagined him being so. According to earliest manuscripts Jesus was neither divine and trinity stuff was added later.
According to Bart Ehrman there was usually no exceptions for taking someone down from the cross, they was there til their bodies decompose, like skeletons etc.

Either way, there was also plenty of early christian sects at the time. I mean honestly most christians follows paul morality rules in general. Its afterall he who gets the idea how followers should behave, i honestly dont get why this guy is considered legit just because he claims he had a vision of something.

[robvalue]

I don't either. Anyone can do that. Apparently it only counts if it was a long time ago, though. Things were automatically true back then.

[Cyberman]

Incidentally, when I saw the title yesterday I thought Troy Brooks was back. This is the shit he trumpets on his sad little apologetics site.

[ignoramus]

Minimum facts? The most "minimum" facts one can have is ZERO!
At least he is being honest this time...

[abaris]

Minimum facts?  The most "maximum" facts one can have is ZERO!
At least he is being honest this time...

Bold and fix by me.

[Longhorn]

The best he can do is a few baseless assertions, the worst he can do is a shitload of baseless assertions

I mean, 5 is something of an improvement

[Tonus]

Minimum facts?  The most "minimum" facts one can have is ZERO!
At least he is being honest this time...

As I understand it, when studying history we often have little information to go on. We may not be able to prove conclusively that a lot of historical figures actually existed, and some (Socrates?) we may never be sure of. Based on that, we can accept that "historical Jesus" existed, in the sense that the stories we read are based on an actual person.

The reason we don't think about this much when it comes to Charlemagne or Genghis Khan is that we understand that these were mortal men. They may have done some great things (and perhaps more, or perhaps fewer, than are attested to) but none of those things included anything we would not expect from a normal person. If there are such accounts, we dismiss them as myth-building. I certainly do not see Christians recognizing Vespasian as an honest-to-goodness miracle worker, even if they accept the idea that those accounts refer to a real person.

Which is why I don't concern myself with whether "historical Jesus" is fact or myth. The question is, are any of the stories attributed to him real? We would have no issue with the idea that a man became famous for preaching his brand of religion, and that his charisma and speaking ability led many to follow him, and that eventually he ran afoul of the local religious leaders, who had him eliminated in a painful and humiliating manner. None of that requires gods or magic. When you get to the parts where he walks on water, cures the blind and paralyzed, brings the dead to life, and finally brings himself back to life before ascending to heaven on a cloud... you need more than written accounts.

Otherwise, you need an altar to Vespasian inside your church, lest you anger god by forgetting one of his chosen messengers.

[Aoi Magi]

ok, I wanna see these "evidences". What is this recent trend with you theists making a single post saying you have some evidence and then making me wait forever for said evidence.
C'mon if you have something just spit it out already...