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Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
#31
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
Thena323 Wrote:Hell. My goodness, what to say? Let's say that God and Hell do exist, for the sake of argument. The idea that a massive number of kind, just and loving people will be sentenced to the ultimate suffering and torment forever is insane.

Thank you for using the word torment, torture isn't in the scriptures as many would have them say. To us many people are kind, just and loving, however we judge compared to other humans, God judges all people who do not accept Christ against His Holy self. No one can live up to that standard, if we could Christ's sacrifice would not have been required. What you're calling insanity is actually equal justices. There being (we're still assuming scriptures true, right) eternal life with God, then the equality in justice would be an eternal punishment. I really can't see how people can't understand this.

Thena323 Wrote:Theists may chime in with some wisdom on obedience, gifts and grace, but it has no bearing on the bigger issue.To describe God sentencing good people to an infinite Hell as an overreaction, doesn't do it justice. It's beyond an overreaction. An implementation so unreasonable and unfair, so over-the-top that I'm having difficult time understanding why I ever believed any of this.

Could be you believe in God's truth at one time. God wasn't overreacting and He isn't unreasonable or unfair, God gave His Son so we could live eternally in heaven, we chose our eternal destination, not God. God gives us our choice, no forcing us which way to choose, yes He has told us the consequences of our choice, that's only fair, right. If God didn't tell us the consequences then we could call hell torture.

Thena323 Wrote:But, keeping with the premise that all of this happens to be true....good grief, we're all screwed aren't we? As in all of humanity. A completely unreasonable, highly sadistic maniac is running the show. He's not made himself very clear....and he likes setting people up. That combination doesn't bode well for any of of us, does it? Can worship really tip the scales? Why bother?

In this last quote it seems you've got things mixed up in your mind. All Christians have nothing to worry about, hell is not in the equation for us, through Christ who we have chosen God sees us a sinless people, without Christ standing between people and God they haven't Christ's protection and will be seen as sinful, God made it simple for people to be saved, yet people want to trash Him, it's beyond me why, it's as clear as a sunny afternoon. God doesn't set anyone up, He gave us simple choices, so simple children can understand and choose Christ. There's only one way to tip the scales, choosing Christ.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#32
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 13, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Thena323 Wrote: Hell. My goodness, what to say? Let's say that God and Hell do exist, for the sake of argument. 

I'd like to debate on those terms, but when refuted, you or another atheist will ignore it for the sake of a red herring. Search your feelings...you know it to be true.
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#33
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
Yes, eternal damnation for not worshipping sounds very fair to me. Rolleyes

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#34
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 15, 2015 at 3:30 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Yes, eternal damnation for not worshipping sounds very fair to me. Rolleyes
The basic rule is to believe and obey without exception or burn.   Even Moses and Jesus had doubts.
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#35
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 15, 2015 at 3:28 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(September 13, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Thena323 Wrote: Hell. My goodness, what to say? Let's say that God and Hell do exist, for the sake of argument. 

I'd like to debate on those terms, but when refuted, you or another atheist will ignore it for the sake of a red herring. Search your feelings...you know it to be true.

No.
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#36
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 15, 2015 at 3:25 pm)Godschild Wrote:
Thena323 Wrote:Hell. My goodness, what to say? Let's say that God and Hell do exist, for the sake of argument. The idea that a massive number of kind, just and loving people will be sentenced to the ultimate suffering and torment forever is insane.

Thank you for using the word torment, torture isn't in the scriptures as many would have them say. To us many people are kind, just and loving, however we judge compared to other humans, God judges all people who do not accept Christ against His Holy self. No one can live up to that standard, if we could Christ's sacrifice would not have been required. What you're calling insanity is actually equal justices. There being (we're still assuming scriptures true, right) eternal life with God, then the equality in justice would be an eternal punishment. I really can't see how people can't understand this.

Thena323 Wrote:Theists may chime in with some wisdom on obedience, gifts and grace, but it has no bearing on the bigger issue.To describe God sentencing good people to an infinite Hell as an overreaction, doesn't do it justice. It's beyond an overreaction. An implementation so unreasonable and unfair, so over-the-top that I'm having difficult time understanding why I ever believed any of this.

Could be you believe in God's truth at one time. God wasn't overreacting and He isn't unreasonable or unfair, God gave His Son so we could live eternally in heaven, we chose our eternal destination, not God. God gives us our choice, no forcing us which way to choose, yes He has told us the consequences of our choice, that's only fair, right. If God didn't tell us the consequences then we could call hell torture.

Thena323 Wrote:But, keeping with the premise that all of this happens to be true....good grief, we're all screwed aren't we? As in all of humanity. A completely unreasonable, highly sadistic maniac is running the show. He's not made himself very clear....and he likes setting people up. That combination doesn't bode well for any of of us, does it? Can worship really tip the scales? Why bother?

In this last quote it seems you've got things mixed up in your mind. All Christians have nothing to worry about, hell is not in the equation for us, through Christ who we have chosen God sees us a sinless people, without Christ standing between people and God they haven't Christ's protection and will be seen as sinful, God made it simple for people to be saved, yet people want to trash Him, it's beyond me why, it's as clear as a sunny afternoon. God doesn't set anyone up, He gave us simple choices, so simple children can understand and choose Christ. There's only one way to tip the scales, choosing Christ.

GC
No, I'm not mixed up, GC.
What I'm suggesting is that if the God of the Bible happened to be real, I wouldn't concern myself with worship
because I would consider Him to be quite vicious and deeply disturbed.

I would compare it to a child who has the misfortune of living with a parent that is violent, controlling, manipulative and emotionally unstable. The child learns soon enough that there are no right answers, nor are there any real choices.....any approval can be easily turned on it's head at any moment, subject to the disturbed whims of a cruel and sadistic parent. 

If this God were real, it would be a safe bet to assume that any favor demonstrated by Him would be tenuous and fleeting. That's how it is with malevolent gods.
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#37
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
Children cannot understand and choose Christ. They have Christ chosen for them. Mostly by their parents through church indoctrination.

If god exists, and hell exists, then god is completely unreasonable expecting everyone to believe in a savior that there's zero evidence for. Imagine for a moment if you will the Christianity is not true, and that instead we are all judged by whether or not we believe in Shiva. It doesn't matter what else you do in your life, no matter how good of a person you are, you go to Naraka. Does Shiva sound reasonable with this expectation? You can bring up personal revelation all the time, but if personal revelation was true (and many believe it's true for their religion too) then you'd find groups of people who never encountered civilization with a belief in Jesus.
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#38
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 15, 2015 at 6:33 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Children cannot understand and choose Christ.  They have Christ chosen for them.  Mostly by their parents through church indoctrination.  

If god exists, and hell exists, then god is completely unreasonable expecting everyone to believe in a savior that there's zero evidence for.  Imagine for a moment if you will the Christianity is not true, and that instead we are all judged by whether or not we believe in Shiva.  It doesn't matter what else you do in your life, no matter how good of a person you are, you go to Naraka.  Does Shiva sound reasonable with this expectation?  You can bring up personal revelation all the time, but if personal revelation was true (and many believe it's true for their religion too) then you'd find groups of people who never encountered civilization with a belief in Jesus.

You believe what you do because you do not know God. Yes some children are talked into believing I've seen it happen, they are the ones who usually leave Christianity. I know plenty of children that have chosen Christ and have been in a very good relationship with God. If there where plenty of evidence for Christ, enough to convince you then where would the choice be, it wouldn't. You as many others would jump on the salvation train wanting you ticket punched for heaven, but where would be the love, the love for God instead of the selfish desire just to be in heaven. You see it's more than having evidence about Christ, it's about the love of Christ and what He did for you. So you and the others that insist on evidence (proof) will never get it until you have chosen the unseen Savior and that's when He will reveal himself to you with the evidence you were seeking.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
#39
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
(September 15, 2015 at 9:24 pm)Godschild Wrote: You believe what you do because you do not know God. Yes some children are talked into believing I've seen it happen, they are the ones who usually leave Christianity. I know plenty of children that have chosen Christ and have been in a very good relationship with God. If there where plenty of evidence for Christ, enough to convince you then where would the choice be, it wouldn't. You as many others would jump on the salvation train wanting you ticket punched for heaven, but where would be the love, the love for God instead of the selfish desire just to be in heaven. You see it's more than having evidence about Christ, it's about the love of Christ and what He did for you. So you and the others that insist on evidence (proof) will never get it until you have chosen the unseen Savior and that's when He will reveal himself to you with the evidence you were seeking.

GC

You missed the entire premise of my point:  If god exists, then god is unreasonable.  He expects people to believe in, worship, and follow him.  And if they do not, then he sends them to a place of eternal torment.  Without evidence, this is completely unreasonable. 

God doesn't reveal evidence for himself once you choose the unseen 'savior'.  When you choose the unseen savior you let confirmation bias convince you that God is actually real because that is what you want to be real. 

Besides, Christ's disciples allegedly (according to the bible) witnessed the miracles of Jesus first hand.  They weren't required to choose to see the unseen savior, they saw him with their own eyes first, and then accepted him.  What sort of god would expect others to set aside reason to believe in him to show evidence, and those that don't he sends to a place of eternal torment.  

Not to mention that Adam and Eve in the same book conversed with God, and yet still they disobeyed him.  As did David, and as did many others.  Knowing god does not mean that you cannot or will not disobey him.  So the free will argument is nothing but a pile of bullshit.

This god of yours doesn't sound remotely reasonable.  Nor does he sound remotely loving.  Which to me suggests that he would not have sacrificed himself to save the souls of anyone, because a non-loving god would not do that.  And a loving god would not have expectations of faith before reason.
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#40
RE: Random Thoughts on Hell: Daddy's Crazy
Thena323 Wrote:No, I'm not mixed up, GC.
What I'm suggesting is that if the God of the Bible happened to be real, I wouldn't concern myself with worship
because I would consider Him to be quite vicious and deeply disturbed.

You've said this several time throughout your posts on many threads, but I'm not sure I've ever seen you give evidence for your belief, is there?

Thena323 Wrote:I would compare it to a child who has the misfortune of living with a parent that is violent, controlling, manipulative and emotionally unstable. The child learns soon enough that there are no right answers, nor are there any real choices.....any approval can be easily turned on it's head at any moment, subject to the disturbed whims of a cruel and sadistic parent.

But God's not controlling, manipulative, emotionally unstable, I'm just not sure where you got those things. As for the violence I understand why you think that way, I questioned God about that many many years after I was saved, eventually I was shown the answer by God through the study of His word. The reason God hadn't revealed it to me before, I wasn't ready to understand, I hadn't learned enough about what God was doing to save mankind. I've seen what God's done and cruel, sadistic and whimsical are not part of who God is. I know you don't believe I've had an experience so real with God that I have no doubts about His existence, I hope that this want last, but to be realistic I'm not going to hold my breath on this one, old men do not have the lung capacity they use to  Angel . Maybe my stubbornest and relentless convictions will show you I'm serious, guess?

Thena323 Wrote:If this God were real, it would be a safe bet to assume that any favor demonstrated by Him would be tenuous and fleeting. That's how it is with malevolent gods.

Let me assure you that God has never be tenuous or fleeting with me, always straight forward and consistent, almost unbelievably so. Also God gives no favors, if He did He would have favorites, can't remember the book or verses but God sees and treats everyone equal in His love. Will that seem the same for everyone of coarse not, we are all different and have different needs, God works through our needs not what we want, desire or through favors.
Just about finished with a set of lamps I built for myself, will then be on to the other projects, I seldom build things for myself took the time to buld these lamps just for me.  Wink
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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