Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(June 12, 2010 at 11:19 pm)tackattack Wrote: @Caecilian- You would draw no correlation that the synchronicity of the event of you basically asking for a sign from God , then receiving a spontaneous LSD-like flash are related? Maybe I could see getting an MRI and seeing the doctor to verify if they continue, but I think that's denial.
And what would you conclude if doctors and psychiatrists found absolutely nothing wrong with you? You'd probably still deny God had anything to do with anything because it's incompatible with your materialistic view, instead of accepting that your view could be wrong and maybe he did provide you with what you asked for.
Nah. I'm pig-headed alright, but I'm not that pig-headed. In the scenario that you give, I'd be forced to examine my assumptions. After all, if your paradigm can't explain your experience, then maybe the problem is with your paradigm. I'm not saying that I'd convert or anything- frankly I have no idea how things would pan out (how could I?). But one thing that I wouldn't do is try to deny what had happened to me. That would be dishonest, and although I have many faults, dishonesty isn't one of them.
Quote:As far as God and morality-The problem with your emotive hate parade is that the first two actually did the events themselves, the third at the most inspired them. What If I have 500 people say that you've inspired them to slaughter all of their own children , because I've told them you have some superhero powers. It turns out your superpowers are completely explainable and you didn't even want them to do what I told them you wanted. What culpability would you actually have in that scenario?
Do you think that Hitler personally killed 6 million jews? Of course he didn't. He didn't even order 6 million jews to be killed. What he did was to create a system- a death machine if you like- appointed the 'right' people, set the policy, equipped his followers with the 'right' ideology, approved the allocation of resources. He was certainly responsible for the Holocaust, but lots of other people were responsible too- on a smaller scale, of course.
God, according to christian theology, plays a similar role in the damnation of people like myself. He created the universe, with full foreknowledge of what would happen. The mechanisms that lead to eternal torment for billions are his work. Just as Hitler created the nazi death machine, so, according to christianity, god created the damnation machine. And if Hitler was directly responsible for the Holocaust, and I think that any reasonable person would say that he was, then god is directly responsible for mass damnation.
Not sure how the superhero analogy works, so I won't comment.
Self examination is always preferable to assuming delusion. Me and EvF got into a discussion on this. Question: If something extraordinary happens to you or you observe something extraordinary is your first assumption that a) it's not real until you can identify it's cause or b) It's real until you can disprove it being extraordinary?
I don't agree with your analogy and here's why:
a) OK, yes we'll agree that God created eternal torment by design just as Hitler created the Nazi death machine
b) You're still presuming that God wants you in the death camp as Hitler did.
c) You're negating any direct killings Hitler has done , which I'm sure is his fare share
d) God doesn't set the policy or the "right ideology". God didn't ask man to make the Bible, we did that on our own, therefore mankind set our own policy based off of our perception of his intentions (which was later shown to be incorrect).
e) I also don't believe God would approve of the allocation of our resources towards war and espousing hatred.
If something seemingly extraordinary happened, I'd begin by trying to find an explanation from within my current paradigm. Delusion would only be applicable to some types of extraordinary event; events that have distinct resemblances to the effects of hallucinogens are always gonna be good candidates for 'delusion'-type explanations.
If an explanation from within my current paradigm didn't work, then it would be time to look further afield. And to keep an open mind.
I don't think that this approach matches either of the options that you give.
As far as my analogy goes:
- Clearly, instantiating the nazi death machine is a very different procedure from instantiating the divine damnation machine. Most importantly: the Holocaust really did happen, whereas god and hell are fictions.
- If god doesn't want me (and others) damned, then why create the system in the first place? He has foreknowledge of whats going to happen. He could have simply allowed everyone into heaven, or at least made hell a much nicer place to be in. So either he really does want me damned, or he's a complete fucking idiot. Take your pick.
- If god really doesn't want to inspire hatred, then he's not doing a very good job. Read the posts by ecolox on this thread.
He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
Mikhail Bakunin
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything
Friedrich Nietzsche
(June 13, 2010 at 3:43 am)WingedFoe Wrote: So, yeah, the Bible mentions a place of fire and brimstone, says that God has the power to send you there, and says that it's a place reserved for those who sin and rebel against Him. I bolded "dead bodies" because those "dead" bodies are being tortured, so apparently "death" in the Bible means eternal torment
Revelation does settle that huh? I guess eternal torment is fair if a soul is set on being eternally sinful and rebellious. You do understand that eternal sin and rebellion means endless evil (which deserves endless punishment)? On earth you may only do a finite amount of evil deeds, but you have the attitude to do such deeds forever, perhaps?
People aren't one-dimensional characters, only capable of "evil." Given an eternity, the same "bad soul" who commits "endless evil" will commit "endless good" as well. By your logic, don't those deeds deserve endless reward?
Quote:
Quote:Meh, Christians are always saying that he committed the ultimate sacrifice, but is it really a sacrifice if all he did was suffer for a few hours before living for an eternity in paradise? A true sacrifice, I think, would be to share the punishment he reserves for the unbelievers... eternal damnation.
You act like getting spat on, beaten, and killed when you don't deserve it is easy. He had to do it all through faith too, I think.
Sending Jesus to eternal damnation would only be sadistic, just what we'd expect you to want.
And everyone who isn't Christian deserves eternal torture? If Jesus is God, and God sent millions of souls to be tortured eternally, then by His own laws of morality (an eye for an eye) He deserves the same.
If Jesus really existed and his whole story (minus all the mumbo-jumbo) is true, then he didn't deserve any of it, I agree. But innocent people experience worse every day; that doesn't mean they should be worshiped.
Quote:
Quote:I can't speak for Caecilian, but I can give you my opinion on the matter. Christians themselves are not sick, evil, and twisted (well, most of them anyway), but a lot of the religion's teachings are. Christians generally take the good stuff and ignore the bad, but if you pick up the Bible you'll notice a lot of bad, like the concept of hell. A being who is willing to dole out eternal punishments for any crime, no matter how grave, is certainly not benevolent. I would even call such a being malevolent.
You're crazy, Hell isn't 'bad'. God doles out eternal punishments for eternally rebellious/evil subjects. That's perfectly fair and just. It's just what we'd expect of a purely good God.
And what constitutes "eternal sin and rebellion," anyway? The Bible lists many "sins," like eating shellfish, working on the sabbath, and including yeast in one's animal offerings. The big one that most Christians worry about, however, is not believing their fairy tale. So a person could live a good life, donate all of their disposable income to charities, devote all of their free time to helping those in need, save the lives of millions of starving children, and sincerely want to do all of these things. But if that person is a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or atheist then he's going to hell. Conversely, a man who murders and rapes hundreds of women could convert and repent at the last minute, and go to heaven. How is that system fair?
A few years ago a quarter of a million people were killed in a tsunami. A couple of hundred years ago people would have assumed the wrath of god. Today, rational people know about tectonic plates and Shit ( i.e. earthquakes ) Happens.
Which is not to say that there aren't lots of shitheads still running around loose.....
Quote:A PRESBYTERIAN church minister caused anger yesterday after he compared the Asian tsunami to Noah’s flood and claimed it was an act of God to punish “pleasure seekers” who broke the Sabbath.
Christopher Hitchens on miracles (inspired by David Hume I believe): “If you seem to witness such a thing, there are two possibilities. The first is that the laws of nature have been suspended (in your favour). The second is that you are under a misapprehension. Thus the likelihood of the second must be weighed against the likelihood of the first.”.
July 17, 2010 at 11:15 am (This post was last modified: July 17, 2010 at 11:19 am by CoolBoy.)
Religions seek to control through fear. The christian god is evil. He is the devil himself.
I once believed that trash. Thank 'god' that I am almost free of it.
Minimalist. I just read the link to the news article in your post.
What kind of evil god would do such a thing. The man who wrote it is a fucking moron. I came here to get rid of the niggling fear I still had stemming from my religious past. After reading that trash Iam over it. I am disgusted by religion - it is an evil lie.
(July 17, 2010 at 11:15 am)CoolBoy Wrote: Religions seek to control through fear. The christian god is evil. He is the devil himself.
I once believed that trash. Thank 'god' that I am almost free of it.
Minimalist. I just read the link to the news article in your post.
What kind of evil god would do such a thing. The man who wrote it is a fucking moron. I came here to get rid of the niggling fear I still had stemming from my religious past. After reading that trash Iam over it. I am disgusted by religion - it is an evil lie.
The christian god is not the 'devil himself' because that implies he/she/it exists outside of peoples imaginations.
You seem to be less an atheist (someone who does not believe god exists) more someone who thinks that god is bad, (implying his/shes/its existance) but still a believer.
God is not evil because there is, in all likely hood, no such thing, but the texts that purport to be its words are.
The evil word of manipulative men, mixed with occasional bit of philosophy.
