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Open letter to Christians
#31
RE: Open letter to Christians
(January 30, 2016 at 8:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I have a huge problem with the concept of "chosen ones", Mystic.  Oh, I know where it came from - tribal warfare, tribal war gods, our tribe is special, and those "other" guys aren't people.  To say that a group is "chosen" - "we are gods' children" - opens the door to "and those other guys are NOT".  Those other guys can burn.  In some cases, we'll burn 'em FOR god - he would approve.  It's dangerous and divisive and sociopathic.

What I mean by chosen ones are like Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Mary, Jesus, Mohammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain, not people who follow those chosen ones.
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#32
RE: Open letter to Christians
(January 30, 2016 at 8:31 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I would think that the Koran would do well to contradict itself, considering that it encourages pedophilia and spousal abuse.

Nihilist, if you are going to learn everything about a religion from those who oppose it, you are going to believe anything they say about it. That said, it's followers are not necessarily the way to know it either. There is a delicate balance in all this, that, if you are seeking the truth, you must tread. Otherwise, you will believe whatever you want about it.
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#33
RE: Open letter to Christians
(January 30, 2016 at 9:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(January 30, 2016 at 8:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I have a huge problem with the concept of "chosen ones", Mystic.  Oh, I know where it came from - tribal warfare, tribal war gods, our tribe is special, and those "other" guys aren't people.  To say that a group is "chosen" - "we are gods' children" - opens the door to "and those other guys are NOT".  Those other guys can burn.  In some cases, we'll burn 'em FOR god - he would approve.  It's dangerous and divisive and sociopathic.

What I mean by chosen ones are like Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Mary, Jesus, Mohammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain, not people who follow those chosen ones.

Ah, but I'm not talking about prophets or historical figures or saints, Mystic.  I'm talking about the mindset of being a "chosen people".  It instantly makes the "chosen" better than all other people.  Jews have it.  Christians have it.  Muslims have it.  And I think it is divisive and dangerous.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#34
RE: Open letter to Christians
(January 30, 2016 at 9:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(January 30, 2016 at 8:31 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I would think that the Koran would do well to contradict itself, considering that it encourages pedophilia and spousal abuse.

Nihilist, if you are going to learn everything about a religion from those who oppose it, you are going to believe anything they say about it. That said, it's followers are not necessarily the way to know it either. There is a delicate balance in all this, that, if you are seeking the truth, you must tread. Otherwise, you will believe whatever you want about it.

OK... what part of what I said was not factual?
Jesus is like Pinocchio.  He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
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#35
RE: Open letter to Christians
(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Please define what you mean by 'contradicts'.
Am I talking to Bill Clinton?  I'll do that for you... right after you define what you mean by 'define.'
Any good debate or involved discussion should begin with the parties involved defining their terms.  Define:  Give a comprehensive and precise meaning of a word or concept.  
(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Anyway, you suggest that there are no contradictions in the Bible, or at the very least you are playing dumb with me.  Ok, I'll play along.

Here's a simple one:

2 Kings 8:26 vs 2 Chronicles 22:2.


(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Here's a more complicated one:



The foundational objection I have to the "the Bible is full of contradictions" argument is the [at least appearance of] ignorance of the narrative of argumentation that has been going on for generations.  John Haley captures the essence of this problem when he wrote, and I'm paraphrasing, "a skeptic will assert a Bible contradiction.  Someone will spend hours in research formulating a proper response.  Then, some time later, a person will assert the same contradiction as if no one has ever written anything on the subject."  That's the problem.  If you really think that your first example is a contradiction, shouldn't you have provided a counterargument as to why it isn't true that the inconsistency is due to a copyist error?  If you really think that your second example is a contradiction, shouldn't you have provided evidence to support the counterargument that no, in fact, Jewish genealogies are always ordered chronologically?  You're speaking as if no one has ever written anything on the subject.    

(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Next you ask me for evidence that scribes prayed for God's help when translating or copying.  I have none.  But just so we're clear, you want me to believe that men who devote their lives to God and pray before eating a donut will not take the time to pray before transcribing the word of God?

Yes, especially because no scribe ate a donut.  Seriously though, you made a positive knowledge claim.  I'm asking you to defend the claim with evidence.  Certainly I find it reasonable to assume that scribes would pray for wisdom and guidance before embarking on such a meaningful task.  At the same time, when Jesus walked the earth who was he hard on?  Who killed him?  Wasn't it at least in part the teachers of the law and the scribes?  Didn't he call them snakes and sons of snakes?  The point here is that you've made a knowledge claim for something you admit to have no evidence of, and clearly the issue isn't as straight forward as you claim it to be.  
(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: You then ask for evidence that "without God's direct restraint everything would be under Satan's control.  Is that true?  Can you prove it?"  Yes I can prove it. Your Bible says that Satan is the god of this world. 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Yet God rules over Satan.  Does everyone act in accordance with God's prescriptive will?  Would everyone act in accordance with Satan's prescriptive will?

(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: "What do you mean here?  We have enough manuscripts and various lines of transmission to determine where the textual variants are.  The vast majority of these variants have no effect on the meaning of the text, though some do."

I said I am assuming in the favor of Christianity that the errors are not contradictions in the original manuscripts but rather are transcriber errors.  Would you prefer we change this working assumption?
Then reconcile your quote in post #1 when your opening statement is:

"It is factual that the Bible contradicts itself."

(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: "Can we determine the truth value of every claim in the Bible?  Is it possible to prove that God is all knowing apart from His word?"

So evidence is not required for the claim that a being with infinite knowledge exists? Yet you are grilling me here on every fine little detail.
That's a misrepresentation of what I said.  I did not say evidence is not required for the claim that a being with infinite knowledge exists.  I asked you, in response to what you wrote, if it was possible to use our intellect to determine the truth value of each claim in the Bible.  Namely, how would you use your intellect to determine the truth value of the statement that "God is all knowing?"
(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: "Weird, I thought Luke was a physician."
Cute.  I was referring to Joshua.  Still playing dumb I see.
Initially you wrote:  "the Bible and the Declaration of Independence - were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists," and your claiming the meaning of that statement is:  "the parts of the Bible that Joshua wrote and the Declaration of Independence- were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists."
(January 28, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: "Is an argument based upon the genetic fallacy in any way reasonable?"
Do you have any intention of reading Mein Kampf to see if there is a deity speaking through the author?  After all, let's not jump to conclusions about Hitler.  He didn't even commit as many war crimes as the authors of the Bible.
Doubling down on the fallacy then?

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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#36
RE: Open letter to Christians
Ummm...sure. Why post an 'Open Letter to Christians' on an atheist forum? I mean there's only a few of us.
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#37
RE: Open letter to Christians
(February 1, 2016 at 5:57 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Ummm...sure. Why post an 'Open Letter to Christians' on an atheist forum? I mean there's only a few of us.

I thought the same thing. It might be more productive to post it on a Christian forum.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#38
RE: Open letter to Christians
Chad, is that you? You look different.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#39
RE: Open letter to Christians
(February 1, 2016 at 6:30 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Chad, is that you? You look different.
Yes, it's me but when I was a bit younger and had more hair.
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#40
RE: Open letter to Christians
You look handsome! Smile
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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