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Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
#1
Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
Why did I put this in the "history" section? Because historically in a very literal evolutionary sense, our species perceptions of reality are notoriously flawed and cause humans to gap fill with very bad guesses.

THIS was a response I got from a person who thinks "karma" is a real thing.

QUOTE......" so coming at me with your beliefs & throwing "facts" in my face will not make me change my mind."

THATS IT RIGHT THERE, humans prefer a comforting lie, a gap answer, over reality.

FACT, "karma" does not exist. Yes bad things happen and humans DO respond when others treat them badly, but that is not magic. That is nature.

The same can be said for religion of all labels. You can point to all the good in the word religion claims, and it would be true ONLY that individuals can be good and do good, but the REALITY is that humans are doing it. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our species, not our labels.
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#2
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
Yes.  As I posted on another thread, a xtian friend of mine got angry with me when I showed her that one of her "inspirational story" Facebook posts had been debunked and was completely false.  I will never forget her comment as she stomped out the door:  "The story is true because the message is true!  Don't ever show me any more FACTS."  

This is an intelligent woman. Really.  Great company most of the time, until you challenge her beliefs.  -- And this wasn't even challenging a belief, just a story she thought was a true account - when it wasn't.  (Although, if you think about it, that covers most religion, doesn't it?) 

I'll also never forget my Mother's response when shown a clear Bible contradiction:  "THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS!!!  You don't have enough faith.  God will explain why it's not a contradiction when we get to heaven!"  

Undecided
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#3
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 1:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Yes.  As I posted on another thread, a xtian friend of mine got angry with me when I showed her that one of her "inspirational story" Facebook posts had been debunked and was completely false.  I will never forget her comment as she stomped out the door:  "The story is true because the message is true!  Don't ever show me any more FACTS."  

This is an intelligent woman. Really.  Great company most of the time, until you challenge her beliefs.  -- And this wasn't even challenging a belief, just a story she thought was a true account - when it wasn't.  (Although, if you think about it, that covers most religion, doesn't it?) 

I'll also never forget my Mother's response when shown a clear Bible contradiction:  "THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS!!!  You don't have enough faith.  God will explain why it's not a contradiction when we get to heaven!"  

Undecided
You'll never get to them by questioning their beliefs in that way. You should try and find some common ground with them and have a genuine conversation with them about their beliefs. Be respectful and sound interested - I hear that works wonders.
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#4
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
Oh, and re: the OP - -    Big Grin

If Karma was real, then surely we would SEE evildoers get taken down, and the people who had spent their lives helping the poor would be the ones to win the lottery a week before they're due to retire, wouldn't we?   Yes, I know that karma believers will probably tell me that karma influences who, or what, we become in the next life - - - which makes no sense.  

There is a Buzzfeed site "21 reasons why karma is not real" - - has pictures - - but here is part of the list it gives.  (The site is a little depressing but I agree with some of these.)
1. Everyone seems to believe that the universe tends to even things out in the end.
2. But we all know that’s bullshit, what goes around never comes around.
3. Bullies always get away with their actions.
4. And assholes never face any repercussions.
5. Rich people live by a different set of rules.
6. And justice is basically a load of bullshit.
7. There is no invisible force keeping moral order.
8. Terrible people constantly tip toe around the law without punishment.
9. Everyday assholes flaunt their disregard for our unwritten rules.
10. Every minute criminals get away with something new.
11. Our actions mean jack shit.
12. We live in a world full of pure chaos.
13. Cutting corners is rewarded!
14. And being nice gets you NO WHERE.
15. There’s no reason to be concerned about other people.
16. There’s no cosmic power that punishes dickheads for their actions.

  http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjkiebus/karma-i....nvjOpRQ7n
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#5
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 1:50 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh, and re: the OP - -    Big Grin

If Karma was real, then surely we would SEE evildoers get taken down, and the people who had spent their lives helping the poor would be the ones to win the lottery a week before they're due to retire, wouldn't we?   Yes, I know that karma believers will probably tell me that karma influences who, or what, we become in the next life - - - which makes no sense.  

There is a Buzzfeed site "21 reasons why karma is not real" - - has pictures - - but here is part of the list it gives.  (The site is a little depressing but I agree with some of these.)
1. Everyone seems to believe that the universe tends to even things out in the end.
2. But we all know that’s bullshit, what goes around never comes around.
3. Bullies always get away with their actions.
4. And assholes never face any repercussions.
5. Rich people live by a different set of rules.
6. And justice is basically a load of bullshit.
7. There is no invisible force keeping moral order.
8. Terrible people constantly tip toe around the law without punishment.
9. Everyday assholes flaunt their disregard for our unwritten rules.
10. Every minute criminals get away with something new.
11. Our actions mean jack shit.
12. We live in a world full of pure chaos.
13. Cutting corners is rewarded!
14. And being nice gets you NO WHERE.
15. There’s no reason to be concerned about other people.
16. There’s no cosmic power that punishes dickheads for their actions.

  http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjkiebus/karma-i....nvjOpRQ7n

Only 7,8,9 and 16 ring true. The others are just fillers.
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#6
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 1:49 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:
(February 8, 2016 at 1:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Yes.  As I posted on another thread, a xtian friend of mine got angry with me when I showed her that one of her "inspirational story" Facebook posts had been debunked and was completely false.  I will never forget her comment as she stomped out the door:  "The story is true because the message is true!  Don't ever show me any more FACTS."  

This is an intelligent woman. Really.  Great company most of the time, until you challenge her beliefs.  -- And this wasn't even challenging a belief, just a story she thought was a true account - when it wasn't.  (Although, if you think about it, that covers most religion, doesn't it?) 

I'll also never forget my Mother's response when shown a clear Bible contradiction:  "THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS!!!  You don't have enough faith.  God will explain why it's not a contradiction when we get to heaven!"  

Undecided
You'll never get to them by questioning their beliefs in that way. You should try and find some common ground with them and have a genuine conversation with them about their beliefs. Be respectful and sound interested - I hear that works wonders.

EP, remember that I was raised Fundie Pentecostal.  These people respond to the tiny-est respectful question as an attack.  My Mother was terrified to be seen as doubting that the Bible was literally written by the hand of God - doubt = disbelief, and God would send her to hell for that.  When I showed my friend the research on her inspirational story, I wasn't questioning a Bible story.  It was something that some preacher had used in a sermon - that he made up - and I showed her his website where he said that he made it up.  Showing her that fact caused her to not speak to me for over a year.   
      There are some people who will never allow their beliefs to be questioned.  They truly think that doubting even what the preacher said will send them to hell.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#7
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 1:49 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:
(February 8, 2016 at 1:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Yes.  As I posted on another thread, a xtian friend of mine got angry with me when I showed her that one of her "inspirational story" Facebook posts had been debunked and was completely false.  I will never forget her comment as she stomped out the door:  "The story is true because the message is true!  Don't ever show me any more FACTS."  

This is an intelligent woman. Really.  Great company most of the time, until you challenge her beliefs.  -- And this wasn't even challenging a belief, just a story she thought was a true account - when it wasn't.  (Although, if you think about it, that covers most religion, doesn't it?) 

I'll also never forget my Mother's response when shown a clear Bible contradiction:  "THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS!!!  You don't have enough faith.  God will explain why it's not a contradiction when we get to heaven!"  

Undecided
You'll never get to them by questioning their beliefs in that way. You should try and find some common ground with them and have a genuine conversation with them about their beliefs. Be respectful and sound interested - I hear that works wonders.

NO, sorry, what works in one context does not always work in every context. There is no one right way to approach bad claims, other than to insist on non violence, no matter who says what. I really hate this good intent, it sounds nice but, far too often this good intent leads to setting up taboos, and that is never good for any parties involved.

"Be nice" all the time simply does not work. For me, it is "depends" on time place and context. 

And sorry I hate the word "respect", that is a hollow and loaded cliche. If it were used in the context you are advocating I'd be fine with it. But that is NOT what most people use it for. "Respect" is simply a word most people use to say "I don't want to consider I am wrong, so don't bruise my ego, and know your place in the social order". "Respect" is a word far too often used to shut down a conversation.

HUMANS certainly have rights, but claims as ideas do not deserve to be scrutiny or blasphemy free. So it depends on context of situation and case by case.
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#8
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 1:57 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(February 8, 2016 at 1:49 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: You'll never get to them by questioning their beliefs in that way. You should try and find some common ground with them and have a genuine conversation with them about their beliefs. Be respectful and sound interested - I hear that works wonders.

NO, sorry, what works in one context does not always work in every context. There is no one right way to approach bad claims, other than to insist on non violence, no matter who says what. I really hate this good intent, it sounds nice but, far too often this good intent leads to setting up taboos, and that is never good for any parties involved.

"Be nice" all the time simply does not work. For me, it is "depends" on time place and context. 

And sorry I hate the word "respect", that is a hollow and loaded cliche. If it were used in the context you are advocating I'd be fine with it. But that is NOT what most people use it for. "Respect" is simply a word most people use to say "I don't want to consider I am wrong, so don't bruise my ego, and know your place in the social order". "Respect" is a word far too often used to shut down a conversation.

HUMANS certainly have rights, but claims as ideas do not deserve to be scrutiny or blasphemy free. So it depends on context of situation and case by case.

How many believers have you successfully talked out of their beliefs with that attitude? Oh, none, really? That's a shocker.
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#9
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
(February 8, 2016 at 2:02 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:
(February 8, 2016 at 1:57 pm)Brian37 Wrote: NO, sorry, what works in one context does not always work in every context. There is no one right way to approach bad claims, other than to insist on non violence, no matter who says what. I really hate this good intent, it sounds nice but, far too often this good intent leads to setting up taboos, and that is never good for any parties involved.

"Be nice" all the time simply does not work. For me, it is "depends" on time place and context. 

And sorry I hate the word "respect", that is a hollow and loaded cliche. If it were used in the context you are advocating I'd be fine with it. But that is NOT what most people use it for. "Respect" is simply a word most people use to say "I don't want to consider I am wrong, so don't bruise my ego, and know your place in the social order". "Respect" is a word far too often used to shut down a conversation.

HUMANS certainly have rights, but claims as ideas do not deserve to be scrutiny or blasphemy free. So it depends on context of situation and case by case.

How many believers have you successfully talked out of their beliefs with that attitude? Oh, none, really? That's a shocker.

Don't know, I am sure quite a few. I do know if it were not for the blasphemy of others I would not be an atheist now. I was offended far too easily as a kid for lots of reasons, and if you had picked on my Catholic beliefs growing up yes, I would have reacted negatively to it. So? Would that give me the right to assault or murder someone? No? Ok so what is your point? 



Yet another bad argument. Again, you are still dealing with 7 billion humans and it still is flat out absurd to expect 7 billion humans to only say nice things about each other. That is a utopia that will never happen.

I dont think you understand that even a mere "that is not true" to many believers might as well be a literal "fuck you". 

Civility isn't about never offending or never getting offended. Civility is what you do in response to those situations. YOU can only control yourself, not others. 

I value human rights, but I will never value "never" as a blanket solution in dealing with speech. It is as it should be dealt with on a "it depends" and case by case.
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#10
RE: Superstiton/religion & anti intellectualism
And you also falsely assume my only reason to do this is to convince believers. Not speaking out against bad claims, does not help those living under a given majority, confidence to do it themselves if they want to. So say, someone like Malala is not helped by silence, and former Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, also are not helped by silence. WW2 could have been completely avoided if enough Germans had seen through the bullshit Hitler sold.

"Never" is not an option. Nobody is advocating or should advocate the forced end of religion. But "never offend" is just flat out wrong.
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