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On integration
#11
RE: On integration
I think there's various factors which affect integration.

Integration isn't so important in communities with an average high IQ and low crime rate.  For example it doesn't bother me that the Chinese people in china town have their own area with their own shops, they rarely form violent gangs and I feel safe walking through there at night.
Jewish people are pretty much the same, Indians also seem to on average occupy high IQ jobs, not sure about the crime rate.

Pakistanis on the other hand tend to occupy low skilled jobs, higher rates of violent crime, gangs.  Ontop of this Pakistan has an even worse culture of female rights than India.  David Cameron is supposed to be spending 5 million pounds of other people's money on hiring teachers to help Muslim women learn English.
  Black people can be segregated, generally overall occupy less skilled low IQ jobs and have a high crime rate but they often come from places that can speak English quite well, they drink alcohol and generally won't have as much of a tough time blending into a normal white working class place, plus I think interbreeding among white and black people is way more common than with white and Pakistani Muslim people.

There are eastern European cultures that are probably worse at integrating than Pakistani Muslims though, there's families in my area who just walk the streets, can't speak English and beg for food or money, they've been caught stealing computers from local mosques, electricity scams, all sorts.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#12
RE: On integration
(February 15, 2016 at 12:19 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote:


Can't help thinking that you've fallen for the 'snapshot' fallacy: your range of data points are collected over too short a time frame. My experience is very different. Where I grew up, there was a fair bit of diversity. I grew up alongside muslims from Indian, Arabic, African and European backgrounds who came from backgrounds where integration was encouraged. Assuming your main point a moment, for the sake of argument, that muslims aren't integrating; since we can observe that integration used to occur, we need to examine what's changed. To simply blame muslims seems short-sighted to me.
Sum ergo sum
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#13
RE: On integration
(February 17, 2016 at 10:12 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(February 15, 2016 at 12:19 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote:


Can't help thinking that you've fallen for the 'snapshot' fallacy: your range of data points are collected over too short a time frame. My experience is very different. Where I grew up, there was a fair bit of diversity. I grew up alongside muslims from Indian, Arabic, African and European backgrounds who came from backgrounds where integration was encouraged. Assuming your main point a moment, for the sake of argument, that muslims aren't integrating; since we can observe that integration used to occur, we need to examine what's changed. To simply blame muslims seems short-sighted to me.

I would actually argue that integration has not really occurred in many 'Muslim communities', mainly Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities. A lot of people who look at integration in the 50s and 60s see how Indian migrants successfully forged a place of their own in British society through the exportation of their own culture (I don't need to reference curry or the Beatles in their psychedelic phase). But Muslim communities have always been different. Bradford in Yorkshire and Tower Hamlets in East London spring to mind immediately of two communities of 1st gen migrants who did what the Inidians did and forged their own place in society. But unlike the Indian migrants (whose way of life of course was also heavily influenced by the Raj, creating a sort of cross-cultural understanding), most Islamic communities whether they be from Asia or Africa never really 'integrated' into the wider fold.

I'm not laying the blame at them entirely. As I said previously there was no coherence at all from any government over the last half a century as to what exactly to do with these now multi-ethnic inner cities. Naturally when faced with a barrier to existence you turn inwards, towards the community you know. Everyone did this and of course still do, it just seems that, for whatever reason, Islamic communities turned inwards and then built walls around themselves. This appears only to have exacerbated since the mid 90s, for whatever reason.

One contemporary example of failure of integration policy has been the Tory Government's attempts both to block any effort to ban faith schools, and to introduce the value of 'British culture'. On the former, it is almost unquestionable that segregation is exacerbated when faith schools are state funded and allowed to prohibit students from entering based on their parent's belief system. On the latter, 'British culture', as with culture per se, is as meaningless as it is stupid when used to try and foster integration. Secular values would have been a better goal to set, IMHO.
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