Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 9:59 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Interesting debate over there .....
#1
Question 
Interesting debate over there .....
So, over on FB in an atheist group I'm in, there is a rather heated discussion going on as to whether or not a man has the right to be a parent if he gets a girl pregnant and she decides she doesn't want to be a parent. I won't use the person's name but I am going to quote his question/initial thought and see what you all think here.

Quote:if a woman can decide to have an abortion or not to does that mean the choice of being a parent rest with her alone for herself but the man also. if this is the case does it not seem right the man be also given the choice to not be a parent in the event she does get pregnant for whatever reason. even if she decided she would like to keep it and be a parent herself? this is quite an interesting question with a lot of factors and opinion. what do people think. note im no suggesting a man has a say if a woman can have an abortion or not but the right to opt out of being a parent

There are many factors to this question, which is why I'm not doing a poll. The first being the right of bodily autonomy. At what point does a man's rights to parent a child override a woman's right to continue a pregnancy or not? I would think that the moment the child is born, is the moment parenting starts. So there would be ZERO moments when a man can override the bodily autonomy issue.

Another factor to consider: If the woman decides to carry the pregnancy to full term, then they both become parents. Either one can back out of the deal by signing over their rights to the other parent. Once a child is born, the parents both have a say in whether or not they want to continue being parents. If they both want it, great. If they both don't want it - there's adoption agencies to handle that too.

Next factor: If one wants it but the other does not, then why not let the willing parent have the child and allow the other person to back out gracefully without having any future rights to that child?

4th factor: What about abstaining from sex with the person (presumably the woman) who doesn't want to become a parent? This would seem to make the most sense to me. The guy can happily find a partner who would be willing to be a parent with him, right?

Before we get too deep into this; Please let's not make this thread SOLELY about the abortion issue. That's not what is being presented here. The question being presented is one of a man's right to parent a child regardless of the woman's wish to parent or not. We can discuss abortion as an option, but I'd like to explore the other factors involved with this particular scenario.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
Reply
#2
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
(February 24, 2016 at 8:19 am)Nymphadora Wrote:


The question being presented is one of a man's right to parent a child regardless of the woman's wish to parent or not. We can discuss abortion as an option, but I'd like to explore the other factors involved with this particular scenario.

(Emphasis mine) If the woman doesn't consent? Tough - no baby, no question. If there's a 'sperm/egg donor & surrogate' situation then everyone's happy (with an understanding that some surrogates have trouble giving the baby up when it's time). In the future, we might be able to grow babies in bio tanks in which case all you need is sperm, egg and one or more adoptive parents of any sex (incl. multi, fluid & none). Currently, if a guy wants to be a single parent, all he needs to do is fill in the appropriate adoption forms however there is a supportable bias against single parents as adopters.
Sum ergo sum
Reply
#3
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a dilemma. Much like pro life versus pro choice, there are two ways to proceed, and it's a matter of weighing up the pros and cons of each method.

It is very strange how the potential father essentially has no legal say in whether his child is born, if you are pro choice. I'd say that is unfortunate, but it's still a better scenario than a women being forced to carry to term, give birth to and then forever be connected with a child she doesn't want.

The father knows nothing about the "baby", which isn't even a baby at the early stages. Other than scanning it screwing around in the womb, there's no actual history there between them. From his point of view, I don't see a lot of difference between one potential unborn and the next. Of course, this is ignoring emotional attachments to the whole idea, especially if it was planned.

So I'd say this isn't a factor that should be ignored, but that personally I feel pro choice is still the most practical and fairest stance all things considered.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#4
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
(February 24, 2016 at 8:19 am)Nymphadora Wrote: So, over on FB in an atheist group I'm in, there is a rather heated discussion going on as to whether or not a man has the right to be a parent if he gets a girl pregnant and she decides she doesn't want to be a parent. I won't use the person's name but I am going to quote his question/initial thought and see what you all think here.

Quote:if a woman can decide to have an abortion or not to does that mean the choice of being a parent rest with her alone for herself but the man also. if this is the case does it not seem right the man be also given the choice to not be a parent in the event she does get pregnant for whatever reason. even if she decided she would like to keep it and be a parent herself? this is quite an interesting question with a lot of factors and opinion. what do people think. note im no suggesting a man has a say if a woman can have an abortion or not but the right to opt out of being a parent

There are many factors to this question, which is why I'm not doing a poll. The first being the right of bodily autonomy. At what point does a man's rights to parent a child override a woman's right to continue a pregnancy or not? I would think that the moment the child is born, is the moment parenting starts. So there would be ZERO moments when a man can override the bodily autonomy issue.

Another factor to consider: If the woman decides to carry the pregnancy to full term, then they both become parents. Either one can back out of the deal by signing over their rights to the other parent. Once a child is born, the parents both have a say in whether or not they want to continue being parents. If they both want it, great. If they both don't want it - there's adoption agencies to handle that too.

Next factor: If one wants it but the other does not, then why not let the willing parent have the child and allow the other person to back out gracefully without having any future rights to that child?

4th factor: What about abstaining from sex with the person (presumably the woman) who doesn't want to become a parent? This would seem to make the most sense to me. The guy can happily find a partner who would be willing to be a parent with him, right?

Before we get too deep into this; Please let's not make this thread SOLELY about the abortion issue. That's not what is being presented here. The question being presented is one of a man's right to parent a child regardless of the woman's wish to parent or not. We can discuss abortion as an option, but I'd like to explore the other factors involved with this particular scenario.

1. The male does not have to carry the child to term. That choice is always the females. The male gets no say.

2. What you said.

3. Parents can sign off rights.

4. Being a parent is not always discussed prior to copulation. How can you abstain if you don't know? Or don't care in the heat of the moment. Or are the 1% failure from birth control.

I note that you have not addressed the financial issues.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
Reply
#5
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
I think its pretty obvious the casting vote in this day and age lies with the woman in this regard.
I don't think its a bad thing, I don't think its a good thing. It simply is. Of course in a perfect world both sexes would have equal say over the decision. This is not that perfect world. It isn't just our psychology that doesn't allow for it, its our biology. One sex actively houses the potential offspring for nine months, the other is essentially a donor. This naturally gives women much more of a right to a say over the pregnancy than men. Despite any efforts this will put most of the cards in one camp and almost none in the other, this is not likely to change anytime soon.

I think a huge part of having a child is finding the right person to have it with. Having a child by yourself is rarely a first resort. That being said if you're having a child with the wrong person it ceases to be a cause of celebration but rather a shackle to those who take obligations seriously. One has to ask themselves if a child who is cause for celebration for one parent and cause for life long imprisonment by another can really have a happy, healthy upbringing. My guess would be "probably not".
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die." 
- Abdul Alhazred.
Reply
#6
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
The man can opt out of parental rights, but not out of parental responsibilities.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
Reply
#7
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
I agree with Raphiel, since overriding the opinion of the woman and forcing her to carry a freshly conceived child to term is out of the question, we are simply left with the option that the woman decides.

I'll say this though: if the woman not wanting children is an issue in a relationship, and the man thinks the solution to it is to force the woman to breed, he is a damaged person and should not have children. If you have sex with a woman, you accept the possibility of a pregnancy. You don't get to wish it away again if it happens.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#8
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
(February 24, 2016 at 9:45 am)mh.brewer Wrote: 1. The male does not have to carry the child to term. That choice is always the females. The male gets no say.

2. What you said.

3. Parents can sign off rights.

4. Being a parent is not always discussed prior to copulation. How can you abstain if you don't know? Or don't care in the heat of the moment. Or are the 1% failure from birth control.

I note that you have not addressed the financial issues.

You are correct. I didn't address the financial issues. It was overlooked. As I said, there are several factors to consider, which I couldn't possibly know what all of them are. Good thing I opted not to do a poll.

Financial issues are plenty. There's the cost of the pregnancy. The cost of giving birth. The cost of providing all of the basic essentials the child will need for the first 18 years of life. This of course doesn't include anything else that the child may need along the way. Child support is going to come up as being an issue as well. Should the parent who doesn't want the child, be forced to pay child support or should they be given the right to opt out of that? I say, if the person who doesn't want the child, is willing to sign away their rights, then the obligation of support no longer rests on their shoulders. Man or woman. But again, they can't try to come into the child's life later on when the financial burden is no longer there. If the child chooses to seek out that parent after they turn 18, it would be up to that child and that parent to decide if they want a relationship or not.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
Reply
#9
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
(February 24, 2016 at 10:03 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: The man can opt out of parental rights, but not out of parental responsibilities.

If you're referring to financial obligations, yes they can. These days, if a woman gives birth to a child and she is not married to the father, he is presented with a form in the hospital called an Affidavit of Paternity. He can refuse to sign it. Mine did. What he can't refuse is a court order establishing paternity. Once paternity is established, he has options of either stepping up and paying court ordered support or he can sign over his rights to the mother, as part of a court order. This releases him of his obligations, which would include having to pay support, but he also will not be put on the birth certificate or be allowed any other rights to the child, including custody and/or visitation.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
Reply
#10
RE: Interesting debate over there .....
(February 24, 2016 at 10:37 am)Nymphadora Wrote:
(February 24, 2016 at 10:03 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: The man can opt out of parental rights, but not out of parental responsibilities.

If you're referring to financial obligations, yes they can. These days, if a woman gives birth to a child and she is not married to the father, he is presented with a form in the hospital called an Affidavit of Paternity. He can refuse to sign it. Mine did. What he can't refuse is a court order establishing paternity. Once paternity is established, he has options of either stepping up and paying court ordered support or he can sign over his rights to the mother, as part of a court order. This releases him of his obligations, which would include having to pay support, but he also will not be put on the birth certificate or be allowed any other rights to the child, including custody and/or visitation.

That may be the lay of the land but I don't think it should be.  Provided the man was ever on board with the idea of a pregnancy, he should have no more option to back out of his responsibility for the financial support of the child than the mother has.  Of course if both biological parents wish for the other to be out of the picture in all ways including financial responsibility, that is fine.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  An Interesting thing About Light Rhondazvous 14 2357 October 31, 2017 at 5:33 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
  Is there a real chance that there is a multiverse? SerenelyBlue 127 14353 September 15, 2016 at 1:59 pm
Last Post: Alex K
  Interesting Fossil discoveries TheBeardedDude 21 3448 December 10, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Last Post: TheBeardedDude
  [TODAY 7:30pm EST] The Existence of Nothing: A Debate [Live Stream] pocaracas 3 1764 March 22, 2013 at 12:53 am
Last Post: Creed of Heresy
  Interesting take on black holes. Annik 15 7449 June 4, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Last Post: Welsh cake
  Debate on FTL Neutrinos hosted by Neil Degrasse Tyson NoMoreFaith 1 1738 March 20, 2012 at 7:19 pm
Last Post: Categories+Sheaves
  Interesting Wind Power Concept orogenicman 6 2590 October 24, 2010 at 11:21 am
Last Post: Anomalocaris
  Move Over, Oldest Recorded Galaxy, there's an older galaxy in town! TheDarkestOfAngels 3 1787 October 21, 2010 at 3:03 am
Last Post: orogenicman



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)