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Free will & the Conservation Laws
#1
Free will & the Conservation Laws
I am a materialist and do not believe that humans, non-human animals, plants, etc., have souls, spirits or any other "non-material" substance.  If the Conservation Laws of Nature (Energy, Momentum, Angular Momentum, etc.) are immutable and without exception, then is not human (or animal) free will an illusion?  Granted that the brain is irreducibly complex, but given enough hypothetical (infinite?) computing power, is not the entire Universe deterministic?  Hence, free will is an illusion?
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#2
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
I think free will is an illusion most likely, yeah. I think the universe is either fatalistic, or the result of many random outcomes at the quantum level. Current models seem to point towards randomness as far as I know; but it's always possible that we just don't see the pattern well enough yet.
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#3
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
(February 28, 2016 at 2:38 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I am a materialist and do not believe that humans, non-human animals, plants, etc., have souls, spirits or any other "non-material" substance.  If the Conservation Laws of Nature (Energy, Momentum, Angular Momentum, etc.) are immutable and without exception, then is not human (or animal) free will an illusion?  Granted that the brain is irreducibly complex, but given enough hypothetical (infinite?) computing power, is not the entire Universe deterministic?  Hence, free will is an illusion?

I agree that free will is illusory (just because actions feel free doesn't mean they are), but wherever did you get the notion that the human brain is irreducibly complex?

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#4
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
(February 28, 2016 at 2:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: I think free will is an illusion most likely, yeah. I think the universe is either fatalistic, or the result of many random outcomes at the quantum level. Current models seem to point towards randomness as far as I know; but it's always possible that we just don't see the pattern well enough yet.

It's generally held that the processes in the brain at the neuron level operate according to classical mechanics and that any quantum effects are negligible.
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#5
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
Our brains function electrically and electrons are not 'deterministic', all you have is probabilities.

So, for me, there's where free will comes from.

Now I'm going to go wall paper my legs with banana peels and abalone shells . . .
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#6
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
(February 28, 2016 at 2:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(February 28, 2016 at 2:38 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I am a materialist and do not believe that humans, non-human animals, plants, etc., have souls, spirits or any other "non-material" substance.  If the Conservation Laws of Nature (Energy, Momentum, Angular Momentum, etc.) are immutable and without exception, then is not human (or animal) free will an illusion?  Granted that the brain is irreducibly complex, but given enough hypothetical (infinite?) computing power, is not the entire Universe deterministic?  Hence, free will is an illusion?

I agree that free will is illusory (just because actions feel free doesn't mean they are), but wherever did you get the notion that the human brain is irreducibly complex?

Boru

The brain is irreducibly complex in that it is much more than 0s & 1s; after all, has anyone simulated a human or mammalian brain?  The answer, of course, is, "Yes," but such have all been very poor to poor simulations.  So far, consciousness exists only in brains and not in computers, and in my opinion, computers will never have consciousness.  For one, most of the human brain is fat, or myelin, which acts as an insulator but also as a messenger, but, I am not expert.  So, whatever makes up consciousness is likely to be found in wetware and not inorganic materials, which make-up computers.
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#7
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
Do you think that a computer made of biological components could be conscious? Are photonics a candidate, being organic computers?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#8
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
If the brain can be influenced by quantum-level events (as seems possible for what is essentially an electrical system governed by tiny quantities of psychoactive substances) then because of the uncertainty principle we cannot know - however much computing power we have - everything about it.

However, it does not follow from this that God or the soul exists. I don't know everything that's down the back of my sofa either, but I'm pretty confident Jesus isn't there.

(How embarrassing would it be for me as an atheist if I found Jesus down the back of my sofa? How much reputation on AF would I lose? Having said that, I moved house quite recently and my sofa did seem a bit heavy. Hang on I'll check.)
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#9
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
Leave no stone un-turned Feb, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#10
RE: Free will & the Conservation Laws
(February 28, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(February 28, 2016 at 2:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I agree that free will is illusory (just because actions feel free doesn't mean they are), but wherever did you get the notion that the human brain is irreducibly complex?

Boru

The brain is irreducibly complex in that it is much more than 0s & 1s; after all, has anyone simulated a human or mammalian brain?  The answer, of course, is, "Yes," but such have all been very poor to poor simulations.  So far, consciousness exists only in brains and not in computers, and in my opinion, computers will never have consciousness.

The last part of what you said is silly IMHO. What is the brain but an organization of matter? There's nothing mystical about it. If that particular organization of matter is necessary for consciousness than if we want build a conscious computer, we will have to build something like an organic brain. We can't do that now but there's nothing in the law of physics which says we can't. Indeed, the fact that brains exist demonstrate there IS a way to do it. Maybe it can't be done with silicon (an assertion I don't believe has been demonstrated) but it sure as hell can be done. If nature can build a brain, so can we. It's just a matter of time to learn how.
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