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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 5:56 pm
Bit of a mistake there, in the consequences. If there is no -free- will, there is no -free- will. Whether or not there is -will- would be a separate question.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 6:01 pm
(March 14, 2016 at 5:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Bit of a mistake there, in the consequences. If there is no -free- will, there is no -free- will. Whether or not there is -will- would be a separate question.
Is it? 
The free comes in as a contrast to "deterministic".
So it is either deterministic: can be mathematically modeled and predicted
or it is free: non-deterministic, probabilistic
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 6:11 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 6:12 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Or fatalistic, or absurdist. No shortage of options. We've told so many stories about our will at this point it;s hard to tell exactly what people mean to express.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 6:23 pm
(March 14, 2016 at 6:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Or fatalistic, or absurdist. No shortage of options. We've told so many stories about our will at this point it;s hard to tell exactly what people mean to express.
well, fatalistic, by definitions, reduces to determinstic.
and absurdist, by definition, reduces to free.
In this sense, of course, there is no shortage of options rewording
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 6:51 pm
(March 14, 2016 at 3:02 pm)RozKek Wrote: Hey, I've read some threads about free will and watched Sam Harris debate etc. I find it really interesting and can't get it off my mind for some reason, but my question right now is: How has your beliefs/views on free will affected your life, if in any way at all?
I behave as if I have free will, even though I doubt very much that I do. Call it a happy medium.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 7:19 pm
Even if I do have some ability to independently influence the course of events, that ability to do so is limited to a tremendous degree by factors I cannot possibly have any influence over.
In that sense, there is no 'free will'. At best, there is 'freedom to choose from a very limited number of options within a great many constraints'. Maybe.
![[Image: 220px-Abort_Retry_Fail.PNG]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Abort_Retry_Fail.PNG/220px-Abort_Retry_Fail.PNG)
You don't have free will to do anything other than select one of the three options provided you here.
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 7:56 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 7:59 pm by truth_seeker.)
(March 14, 2016 at 7:19 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Even if I do have some ability to independently influence the course of events, that ability to do so is limited to a tremendous degree by factors I cannot possibly have any influence over.
In that sense, there is no 'free will'. At best, there is 'freedom to choose from a very limited number of options within a great many constraints'. Maybe.
You don't have free will to do anything other than select one of the three options provided you here.
Free will says nothing about whether you have limited vs unlimited will.
It only asserts that you have **a** freedom. How big/small is the margin is another issue.
The opposite of free will is determinism. It says that everything you do is based on movement of molecules that can be recorded and predicated mathematically. i.e. you are *only* a big fat equation, so I can "plot" everything that you are going to do until infinity.
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 9:04 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 9:07 pm by Ryantology.)
(March 14, 2016 at 7:56 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: (March 14, 2016 at 7:19 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Even if I do have some ability to independently influence the course of events, that ability to do so is limited to a tremendous degree by factors I cannot possibly have any influence over.
In that sense, there is no 'free will'. At best, there is 'freedom to choose from a very limited number of options within a great many constraints'. Maybe.
You don't have free will to do anything other than select one of the three options provided you here.
Free will says nothing about whether you have limited vs unlimited will.
It only asserts that you have **a** freedom. How big/small is the margin is another issue.
The opposite of free will is determinism. It says that everything you do is based on movement of molecules that can be recorded and predicated mathematically. i.e. you are *only* a big fat equation, so I can "plot" everything that you are going to do until infinity.
Yeah. In that sense, 'free' is a meaningless modifier. The very concept of will, as I understand it, relies on the assumption that there is some capacity to exercise some degree of influence on a deterministic universe which is not recognizably dependent on said deterministic forces. There is either will, or we're just parts of the machine.
The problem in these kinds of discussions is that the word 'free' is used by theists (and quite a few atheists, to be honest) to suggest that 100% of the responsibility for a person's actions rest upon that person, and that none of it rests with God (who would actually have free will).
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 9:16 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 9:21 pm by truth_seeker.)
(March 14, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: (March 14, 2016 at 7:56 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: Free will says nothing about whether you have limited vs unlimited will.
It only asserts that you have **a** freedom. How big/small is the margin is another issue.
The opposite of free will is determinism. It says that everything you do is based on movement of molecules that can be recorded and predicated mathematically. i.e. you are *only* a big fat equation, so I can "plot" everything that you are going to do until infinity.
Yeah. In that sense, 'free' is a meaningless modifier. The very concept of will, as I understand it, relies on the assumption that there is some capacity to exercise some degree of influence on a deterministic universe which is not recognizably dependent on said deterministic forces. There is either will, or we're just parts of the machine.
The problem in these kinds of discussions is that the word 'free' is used by theists (and quite a few atheists, to be honest) to suggest that 100% of the responsibility for a person's actions rest upon that person, and that none of it rests with God (who would actually have free will).
In your screenshot, you are *free* to choose "Abort", "Retry", "Fail", or simply "Nothing at all" and just stare at the screen as long as you want.
You have just exercised free will.
On the other hand, if I came next to you, tied your body, moved your hand on the keyboard to select "Abort", "Retry", "Fail", or "Nothing"
>>> then you did not have *free* will in this case.
HOWEVER, even in this case you might still had a will inside of you to choose "Abort", but that will has not been freed because of my intervention. Your will is still true and does exist, but my intervention caused it to be not free, hence the term "against your will".
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RE: Free will and you.
March 14, 2016 at 9:28 pm
(March 14, 2016 at 9:16 pm)truth_seeker Wrote: (March 14, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Yeah. In that sense, 'free' is a meaningless modifier. The very concept of will, as I understand it, relies on the assumption that there is some capacity to exercise some degree of influence on a deterministic universe which is not recognizably dependent on said deterministic forces. There is either will, or we're just parts of the machine.
The problem in these kinds of discussions is that the word 'free' is used by theists (and quite a few atheists, to be honest) to suggest that 100% of the responsibility for a person's actions rest upon that person, and that none of it rests with God (who would actually have free will).
In your screenshot, you are *free* to choose "Abort", "Retry", "Fail", or simply "Nothing at all" and just stare at the screen as long as you want.
You have just exercised free will.
On the other hand, if I came next to you, tied your body, moved your hand on the keyboard to select "Abort", "Retry", "Fail", or "Nothing"
>>> then you did not have *free* will in this case.
HOWEVER, even in this case you might still had a will inside of you to choose "Abort", but that will has not been freed because of my intervention. Your will is still true and does exist, but my intervention caused it to be not free, hence the term "against your will".
If my will is not allowed to be exercised, does that not simply subject me to deterministic effects, in a practical sense? If I am not free to exercise my will, I may as well not have will at all.
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