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Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
#21
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 16, 2016 at 6:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Words can be synonymous, but still, have different meaning. Synonyms are not all words with exact same meaning in all places. And in time sometimes words loose their original meaning. But we see in study of Quran, the word astafa is used in 12 verses, 13 times, and it has a special meaning.



To you bani-Israel were chosen and not simply selected, but Quran is saying peace is upon all such servants, but then Quran is also saying many of Bani-Israel were cursed for disobeying God and his Messengers.

The definition of synonym -a simple google search will produce the results-:


Quote:a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close.
"‘the East’ was a synonym for the Soviet empire"


Quote:a person or thing so closely associated with a particular quality or idea that the mention of their name calls it to mind.
"the Victorian age is a synonym for sexual puritanism"

Mmmm..

Quote:If Bani-Israel was chosen, and they had people who disobeyed God and were cursed by God, then why did Quran say:

Peace be upon the servants of God that he has chosen (astafa)...

Because the word "Istafa" means "to select a subject from within a group"?
A subject that might prove worthless, or worthy.

So this verse is about the "worthy" ones; the ones who were chosen (i.e selected; got picked up), and passed the test, lived up to the promise.

While this verse on the other hand:

Sura 6

( 87 )   And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.
( 88 )   That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing.

Is about the unworthy, if somebody was "chosen" yet proved to be a failure.
I even told you about Jonah's story, but to my surprise -no not really; I'm not surprised-, you just ignored that point.



A verse for what obeying is met by, and a verse about what disobeying is met with; the ultimate perfect balance.
Islam is a religion of justice; Mystic. Our God is so just; he's not a father with a napoleon complex or a woman with mid-age crisis.

Quote:To you bani-Israel were chosen and not simply selected, but Quran is saying peace is upon all such servants, but then Quran is also saying many of Bani-Israel were cursed for disobeying God and his Messengers.

No you don't get it..
To me, "choose" and "select" are synonyms.
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#22
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Islam is Hebrew 3.0 Christianity is Hebrew 2.0, but even Hebrew is Canaanite 2.0. All three are the same god of Abraham and the Yahweh character that lead to the monotheism of all three are the same character and that character was a lesser god in polytheism before the Hebrews turned it into a monotheistic god.

Just like you will never get a Buddhist to admit that it is a spin off of Hinduism. No religion starts out in a vacuum. All religions get started like any new product does, competition. Someone looks at the old ways doesn't like it, incorporates some of the language/motifs of the old ways, demonizes the outsiders to compete.

There is nothing original about any religion. Humans make up all religions. Religion competes like Coke and Pepsi. Coke comes up with a cherry soda, and Pepsi looks at it and says "we need to get in on that", so they come up with their own cherry soda, give it a different name, and different color can.
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#23
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 16, 2016 at 2:29 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:
(April 16, 2016 at 3:50 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Aisha isn't special, there is a verse though describing "all" the wives of being the mothers of Muslims:
Even Eve was the first woman? Literally, if the Quran considers her a literal person (unlike, apparently, the Hebrew of Genesis), she would be the "mother of all believers"? Wahaabi-Salafi are determined to convince Christians (and Jews) that everyone in the Bible followed exactly what Muhammad taught - even when what they taught contradicts what Wahaabi-Safali believe.

Jew drink alcohol - Noah was a alcoholic according the Bible. Christians believe Jesus turned water into alcohol. You provided your evidences that many caliphs drunk alcohol and clarified the Quran Iyah. But all of this doesn't matter to Wahaabi-Salafi - the are at war with reality, and Tasbih, shutting down conversations which they don't like and bombs seem to be their only weapons (and Saudi is a prime example of this). They want to ignore those parts of the Bible and simply tell people that Jesus prays like them according to the Bible and anything else convenient to them.

I knew about the Grand Mosque Seizure. Probably the same people that killed King Fasiel because they didn't want Saudi to have its own television station. Apparently TV was too "Western" for some Wahaabi-Salafi scholars. Yet these are the same people who, today, flood YouTube with garbage to try and convince us Kuffar (and I include you because you do many supposedly Haram things). Funny how things turn out. Interpretation is driven by desire: The more their message spreads, the more money they get from donations, but they are, of course, all subsidized by Saudi. So now we have a breed of Western born so-called "scholars" like the comedic man in the first video.
There was another theory behind that assassination though, the guy who was accused according to the theory, was brainwashed by Washington, not a Wahhabi militia. Sadat -of Egypt- got assassinated in the same time reference. 

It was all about deleting the tracks of 73. Two key joints were moving the scene inside the Middle East: Saudi Arabia -economically-. and Egypt with the military -force-.
Technically. they were drawing the map of the new Middle East, that M.E that would be in peace with Israel, witnesses cannot remain alive though. Both were assassinated.

 The alcohol thing is overrated by Wahhabies. Don't get me wrong; God's revelations and sentences are indeed holy. But wahhabies take stuff like alcohol, women, focus on it, and neglect the verses about murder, stealing, corruption, dictatorships, and all the other things in the Quran.

So for example, dictators like the Sauds murder, torture, steal, but wahhabies praise them at the end of the just because they porhibit alcohol.
A demonic faith, if you ask me.


Quote:Probably the kind of man who supports that Saudi Shekyh that recently said it's Halal to each your wife if you're starving. You can look it up. Whether or not it's actually true that he said that I don't know; you know the media. These Western coverts to Wahaabi/Salafi doctrine they care more about money than truth. They go around the world giving speeches where they pretend to educate people. And those they have on puppet strings are too busy with Tasbih (like you say, Allah the ATM) to care that their giving their money to scammers.

I don't know about westerners who turn to Wahhabism; all my experience comes from videos like the ones you share, I have to admit you introduced me to the movement in the U.K; never thought they were so widespread in the west..had my doubts but never did I see it.


Quote:Shabir Ali can do that. He's one of the better Da'is (not sure if he's been brainwashed by Saudi like the others, but at least he appears somewhat intelligent). The fact that he actually allows women to show their faces on camera is clearly a sign that he's a lot more sane than many of the others.

What I took away from Shabir's video is: Yes, the Hadith are confusing, but don't worry. Even though people can't agree on which Hadith and real and which are fake, you can buy lots of big and expensive books which will help you to make your mind up. It's up to you to go through each and every Hadith instead of throwing them all out. And don't just limit yourself to the standard "collections" of Hadith. Some outside of the standard collection may be good Hadith too. It doesn't matter that the (singe transmission ones at least) Hadith are like a game of Chinese Whispers, so, go on, delve right 

And notice how they said that they were going to discuss "the nature of Satan" but the never did. That was silly. Those are the sorts of blunders I expect from somebody like DawahMan.


about the video though:

1-It's not very irrisponsible to reject the Hadith; I'm not rejecting what the prophet did or say; I'm rejecting "the way it was collected and documented".
It's more of a "Hadith books rejection", rather than the direct, rash accusation of me and us rejects of the Hadith of being "irrisponsible".

2-I can't interact with the dead..So I would put lots of underlines here: The prophet is dead.

3-The Quran is very obvious. I tried to go through it, and I didn't see Hadith believers fair well against the interpretation. I consider it a blessing from God, if one believe in him, God simplifies things, the Quran is simple, easy to read. 

4-As for the prayer call,or let's say "the details of worships", these are inherited, just like Buddists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, and everybody else is inheriting the rituals of their worship, I believe it's the same here..
It's not like Muslims are unified in them details. "Shia" pray in a different way than Sunna, the prayer call is also different in some lines.

5-Reading history and learning from it is one thing, replacing revelation with twisted historical stories is another thing. The Hadith cannot be trusted, he speaks about the Hadith as if it was a revelation from God.

6-The rejection -as I mentioned above- is derived from lack of trust in the authors.
Reply
#24
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 17, 2016 at 3:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: There was another theory behind that assassination though, the guy who was accused according to the theory, was brainwashed by Washington, not a Wahhabi militia. Sadat -of Egypt- got assassinated in the same time reference.

It was all about deleting the tracks of 73. Two key joints were moving the scene inside the Middle East: Saudi Arabia -economically-. and Egypt with the military -force-.
Technically. they were drawing the map of the new Middle East, that M.E that would be in peace with Israel, witnesses cannot remain alive though. Both were assassinated.
I heard this island transfer between Egypt and Saudi says a lot about M.E.. Why isn't Israel concerned about a country that finances people that want to wipe them off the map? Does Israel hate Secular/Communist Palestinians that much?

(April 17, 2016 at 3:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The alcohol thing is overrated by Wahhabies. Don't get me wrong; God's revelations and sentences are indeed holy. But wahhabies take stuff like alcohol, women, focus on it, and neglect the verses about murder, stealing, corruption, dictatorships, and all the other things in the Quran.

So for example, dictators like the Sauds murder, torture, steal, but wahhabies praise them at the end of the just because they porhibit alcohol.
A demonic faith, if you ask me.

They ask these Wahaabi-Salafi types on the television about Saudi sometimes. They make up all sorts of excuses and lies. Such as (to cite a few): "Saudi doesn't represent me", "more Saudi women are going to university than ever before", "Saudi doesn't have true Sharia" or "You're a bigot for saying Saudi is a terrible country". Why is that a Shiite or an Ibaḍiyya can criticize Buhkari (and, well,, Wahaabi-Salafi Barbarism in general) and not be called "Islamophobe" but if I do there's a risk I will be called an "Islamophobe"?

Probably, like you've said before, many Arabs are racist so they view alcohol as this Western thing. Like how Richard Nixon banned Heroin because he wanted to control the Africans living the United States or how Opium was banned when lots of people from the Sinosphere started going to the United States. The Arab countries probably ban Hashish because they don't like those goofy Sufis.

(April 17, 2016 at 3:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't know about westerners who turn to Wahhabism; all my experience comes from videos like the ones you share, I have to admit you introduced me to the movement in the U.K; never thought they were so widespread in the west..had my doubts but never did I see it.
I think it's so that Western countries can't ban or deport them. Saudi realized that many of the "scholars" that they fund were getting banned from a lot of Western countries so they had to create some "homegrown" ones. There is a long list of big name Wahaabi-Salafis in the English speaking countries. It's also forced Wahaab-Salafis to embrace modern technology, something which they didn't want to do, because it helps to spread their messages.

As an example, Bilal Phillips was banned from Kenya so he delivers his Fascist speeches via Skype instead.

Since so many countries have banned him, when he went to Kenya before being banned he was 'forced' to fly back on a private jet because commercial airlines wouldn't take him. Islam Newsreoom reports.These are the same people that whine about how much the Ummah is suffering and they spend money on private jets. All of the money these so-called “scholars” hoard for themselves by giving incoherent speeches around the world could be used to lessen the suffering of the Ummah. But money for Dawah is apparently more important than even the Palestinians.

You should go to the UK and beat those Wahaabi-Salafi people with your intellect. Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park in London is infested with these cockroaches (many Christians there are just as awful, but the Sikhs seem to be alright I suppose). But it's not just the UK. There are all over the English and French speaking world. And now they are extending to Spanish speaking countries. They want to control our planet and will stop at nothing.

These people are so stupid, and have such small brains, that they don't even know why driving whilst drunk is a bad idea (it's dangerous but they can't work it out) and this part of their Dawah tactics. You have to, for some reason, explain to them why alcohol and driving is a bad idea because it's as if they genuinely don't know. If you look in the beginning of the video below, the man, Abass is his name, it's like he can't understand why people driving whilst drunk is bad because he can't work out that it's disrespectful to other drivers. The Quran has nothing to say about driving cars, but Abass makes it sound as though it does. Using a camel is not the same as using a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAAaarvsUC0


(April 17, 2016 at 3:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: about the video though:

1-It's not very irrisponsible to reject the Hadith; I'm not rejecting what the prophet did or say; I'm rejecting "the way it was collected and documented".
It's more of a "Hadith books rejection", rather than the direct, rash accusation of me and us rejects of the Hadith of being "irrisponsible".

2-I can't interact with the dead..So I would put lots of underlines here: The prophet is dead.

3-The Quran is very obvious. I tried to go through it, and I didn't see Hadith believers fair well against the interpretation. I consider it a blessing from God, if one believe in him, God simplifies things, the Quran is simple, easy to read.

4-As for the prayer call,or let's say "the details of worships", these are inherited, just like Buddists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, and everybody else is inheriting the rituals of their worship, I believe it's the same here..
It's not like Muslims are unified in them details. "Shia" pray in a different way than Sunna, the prayer call is also different in some lines.

5-Reading history and learning from it is one thing, replacing revelation with twisted historical stories is another thing. The Hadith cannot be trusted, he speaks about the Hadith as if it was a revelation from God.

6-The rejection -as I mentioned above- is derived from lack of trust in the authors.

All good points. Nothing really to say here. The Quran has nothing to say on Hadith. People who use Hadith are admiting the Quran isn't clear isn't clear enough for them. So they need somebody to hold their hand all of the time, like a parent to their baby, whilst they read Quran.

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#25
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Fuck Wahhabism, now if you started a Sushi religion I'd certainly become a Wasabist. Ichiban!
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#26
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 16, 2016 at 6:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Islam is Hebrew 3.0 Christianity is Hebrew 2.0, but even Hebrew is Canaanite 2.0. All three are the same god of Abraham and the Yahweh character that lead to the monotheism of all three are the same character and that character was a lesser god in polytheism before the Hebrews turned it into a monotheistic god.

Just like you will never get a Buddhist to admit that it is a spin off of Hinduism. No religion starts out in a vacuum. All religions get started like any new product does, competition. Someone looks at the old ways doesn't like it, incorporates some of the language/motifs of the old ways, demonizes the outsiders to compete.

There is nothing original about any religion. Humans make up all religions. Religion competes like Coke and Pepsi. Coke comes up with a cherry soda, and Pepsi looks at it and says "we need to get in on that", so they come up with their own cherry soda, give it a different name, and different color can.

It's not a product for sale; Brian.
The religion is one; God is the same, it's not like you need God to get updated. Moses was sent because Abraham was forgotten; Jesus was sent because Moses was forgotten; Mohammed was sent because Jesus was forgotten.

It's the same religion, with different implementation techniques, due to the era & the place. 

All religions -in terms of concepts- meet at a certain level, there is always the centerlized strong figure -some refer to him as the Father, Yahweh, Allah, Osiris, Buddah,  Krishna, Zeus...etc-, it's always the God sorrounded by mini-deities -angles-.

It's Islam. It's the religion of Abraham, got twisted and forged into so many versions.
God said the truth when he mentioned that all humans were warned.. all.

and most were corrupted, they just forged things to produce new corrupted versions.

Look at Shia and Sunna Muslims; you'll see it. Catholics, Prostant & Orthodox too.

Mmmmm, salmon sushi roles  Heart
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#27
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
The thing is Quran doesn't show Noah, then Abraham, then Moses. And that Prophets were only sent when the others were forgotten.

But rather it emphasizes that Prophets were made to succeed them, and that they were leaders who guided by God's command. That yes God revived the messages with the Abraham or Moses, but when he did so, he didn't leave the nation of believers to themselves, but tried them benevolently with respect to leaders he appointed.

For example in Bani-Israel, it was not Moses then Jesus. Rather, a series of Guides succeeded one another.

After, Isaac, Jacob then Joseph were Guides.

Of course there is no more revelations to be revealed to humanity from God (God put an end to Prophethood), but the Quran shows that there people who posses the authority from this nation and they been assigned in context of the authority of God.
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#28
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 17, 2016 at 7:17 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I heard this island transfer between Egypt and Saudi says a lot about M.E.. Why isn't Israel concerned about a country that finances people that want to wipe them off the map? Does Israel hate Secular/Communist Palestinians that much?

It was over years ago. This region is no more than a backyard that is being cut like a cake; it all began after WW1. 100 years should not be enough to wipe the fact of that the East -Ottoman Empire- was at war with the West -Led by the British Empire-; a war that the East lost.

This is just how the M.E is; a farm that is being cut like a cake between men of power. We -the citezens- get to pay for complicated procedures, complex and useless systems and regulations, forceful siezing of personal wealth for the sake of filling the pockets of dictators and fund the dirty projects in the region.

Don't bet on Saudi Arabia being against Israel.






This is the Saudi general; Anwar Eshki.
Saudia is not Israel's enemy, MNMP. realize that.

Wahhabies are only a threat against Islam itself. They pose a danger only on us Muslims. They are the best thing Israel could ever wish for. 
While Israelis build nuclear reactors, manufacture guns, and turn deserts into gardens, Wahhabies sit and discuss "al Mahdi", and about wheather women should travel with a male spouse or not.

Saudies are the best allies for Israel. and they keep drugging Muslims and destroying Islam by supporting wahhabies, until everybody turns atheist.
More of anwar eshki:





Saudi Arabia is officially declaring its alliance with Israel.
It's not a conspeiracy theory anymore.


Quote:They ask these Wahaabi-Salafi types on the television about Saudi sometimes. They make up all sorts of excuses and lies. Such as (to cite a few): "Saudi doesn't represent me", "more Saudi women are going to university than ever before", "Saudi doesn't have true Sharia" or "You're a bigot for saying Saudi is a terrible country". Why is that a Shiite or an Ibaḍiyya can criticize Buhkari (and, well,, Wahaabi-Salafi Barbarism in general) and not be called "Islamophobe" but if I do there's a risk I will be called an "Islamophobe"?

Probably, like you've said before, many Arabs are racist so they view alcohol as this Western thing. Like how Richard Nixon banned Heroin because he wanted to control the Africans living the United States or how Opium was banned when lots of people from the Sinosphere started going to the United States. The Arab countries probably ban Hashish because they don't like those goofy Sufis.

Many of them work with the Saudi intelligence agencies, btw. I'm not comfortable writing this here, but the cards are all exposed now, so no point of hiding.
Wahhabies/Salafies are well known to have 2 types:

1-Fanatics; like the ones invaded the grand mosque
2-Agents and spies, like ISIS and this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamad_al-Arefe

The agents are zionists to the core, what they do is literally building the road towards the middle east of "Anwar Eshki" and Israel.

To win a war, there is no such ally better than an inside man, who goes around wearing the enemy's skin, and commiting every possible disaster in the enemy's name. 
Wahhabies are that inside man. 


Quote:I think it's so that Western countries can't ban or deport them. Saudi realized that many of the "scholars" that they fund were getting banned from a lot of Western countries so they had to create some "homegrown" ones. There is a long list of big name Wahaabi-Salafis in the English speaking countries. It's also forced Wahaab-Salafis to embrace modern technology, something which they didn't want to do, because it helps to spread their messages. 

As an example, Bilal Phillips was banned from Kenya.

Since so many countries have banned him, when he went to Kenya before being banned he was 'forced' to fly back on a private jet because commercial airlines wouldn't take him. .These are the same people that whine about how much the Ummah is suffering and they spend money on private jets. All of the money these so-called “scholars” hoard for themselves by giving incoherent speeches around the world could be used to lessen the suffering of the Ummah. But money for Dawah is apparently more important than even the Palestinians.

Well, tell me about where ISIS gets its warriors from; you assert my doubts, ISIS for example has so many western-born Muslims in its ranks, all looking like the Wahhabi stuffed with whey protein -the one you brought me his video-, that is what they do in the west.

These guys are funded, organized, and have agendas. I always wonder how they get visas so easy, traveling to the west is so hard, I know because my generation always considered taking a certificate from the outside, we asked, it was harsh, but wahhabies fly back and forth so easily. Some even go to Syria, fight there, then return safely. WTF????

He'll speak about the "Umma's pains", just as an excitement speech that adds and emotional perspective, in the brainwashing of the new terrorists.

About that video, well the only comment I will make, is this:

Sura 2
( 219 )   They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

Again, why do Muslims ignore the Quran?
If one speaks in the name of God, One should not date to cross the verses of God.

Alcohol has benefits, but the damage of it is bigger. Of course it was proved; so, let's avoid it, or if we we would to ever use it, we should use it with moderation?


Quote:All good points. Nothing really to say here. The Quran has nothing to say on Hadith. People who use Hadith are admiting the Quran isn't clear isn't clear enough for them. So they need somebody to hold their hand all of the time, like a parent to their baby, whilst they read Quran.


It mentioned though how Judaism and Christianity were forged before: they were forged through what is similiar to the hadith.
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#29
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 17, 2016 at 4:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(April 16, 2016 at 6:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Islam is Hebrew 3.0 Christianity is Hebrew 2.0, but even Hebrew is Canaanite 2.0. All three are the same god of Abraham and the Yahweh character that lead to the monotheism of all three are the same character and that character was a lesser god in polytheism before the Hebrews turned it into a monotheistic god.

Just like you will never get a Buddhist to admit that it is a spin off of Hinduism. No religion starts out in a vacuum. All religions get started like any new product does, competition. Someone looks at the old ways doesn't like it, incorporates some of the language/motifs of the old ways, demonizes the outsiders to compete.

There is nothing original about any religion. Humans make up all religions. Religion competes like Coke and Pepsi. Coke comes up with a cherry soda, and Pepsi looks at it and says "we need to get in on that", so they come up with their own cherry soda, give it a different name, and different color can.

It's not a product for sale; Brian.
The religion is one; God is the same, it's not like you need God to get updated. Moses was sent because Abraham was forgotten; Jesus was sent because Moses was forgotten; Mohammed was sent because Jesus was forgotten.

It's the same religion, with different implementation techniques, due to the era & the place. 

All religions -in terms of concepts- meet at a certain level, there is always the centerlized strong figure -some refer to him as the Father, Yahweh, Allah, Osiris, Buddah,  Krishna, Zeus...etc-, it's always the God sorrounded by mini-deities -angles-.

It's Islam. It's the religion of Abraham, got twisted and forged into so many versions.
God said the truth when he mentioned that all humans were warned.. all.

and most were corrupted, they just forged things to produce new corrupted versions.

Look at Shia and Sunna Muslims; you'll see it. Catholics, Prostant & Orthodox too.

Mmmmm, salmon sushi roles  Heart

No holy books are not products like cars or stereos, but they do get marketed like products, problem is they are not useful outside a sugar pill.
Reply
#30
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Wahaabi-Salafi personalities in the West all look so homosexual. So they use the whey protein to try and deflect from that. "Oh look at how masculine I really am". And these same people criticize Kuffar for wanting the attention of the women.

In fairness, the some of the countries argue that (some of) the people that return from fighting for al-Saud can be used as cautionary tails, so as to discourage others from going themselves. It's true that some really believe they are doing the right thing, but others are simply young and brainwashed and didn't realize how harsh life in Iraq and Syria is.

There's a reason those millions of refugees want to flee Syria: It's because Syria isn't in good shape right now. And yet we have these naive school-age children (because that's what many of them are) thinking that fighting for al-Saud in Iraq and Syria is the best thing ever. Yeah, it's sick, but Saudi and a lot of money and president Erdogan (he stole the election in Turkey I'm sure) is happy let them pass through on their way to Syria.

Yeah, give the defiant ones some time in jail for the ignorance. But some of them go to the Levant and immediately want to leave. Some of the people that go over can be saved from the Wahabbi-Salafi madness once they see the reality of it in Syria and Iraq.

I will watch the videos you provided later.

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