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"heaven" meme on facebook
#21
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 7:24 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:
(April 29, 2016 at 9:00 am)Wryetui Wrote: I have some problems understanding your reasoning, if you allow me. "And the only important thing in your life is keeping an imaginary sky-daddy happy so you get to go to the good place after you die. And the only important thing in your life is keeping an imaginary sky-daddy happy so you get to go to the good place after you die.", " I have personally witnessed the misery and evil that this mindset creates. I have witnessed families torn apart by parents who believe that god will send them to hell if they don't disown their children. I have witnessed the fear of children, praying to be "good enough" so they will get into heaven instead of burning."

Can you explain to me the nature of these theologically wrong bolded prepositions? It is becoming clear to me that you do not, in fact, "hate this madness called christianity", but you have made an idea of what christianity is (in your head) and you are attacking theology based on your own idea, not the original one. Can you read this? https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2god...kalomiros/

Simples, theology is wrong. It is an exercise in rationalising the irrational fears and imaginings of stone age and bronze age people. Religions and gods are human creations they reflect the nature of their creators.

"Religions and gods are human creations they reflect the nature of their creators.", I do not think you are completely wrong in this, you actually have a point, in my opinion. All the religions in this world reflect the desires of the humans worshipping them, for example, the greeks and romans who were so avid in war created a God called Marte (or its counterpart) to favor their desire of war, they saw the greatest force they ever knew, the climate, and gave it a name, Zeus, and so on with other so called deities. But what do you do when you find a God that is against human nature? How is Jesus Christ the reflection of the human nature? Human nature has a "natural" appetite for sexual intercourse and a strong sexual desire, but our God told us clearly: "Sexuality must only be for marriage, so know that everytime you feel sexually attracted to someone, and you indulge in that feeling, you are sinning, masturbation is unnatural, homosexuality is unnatural, zoophilia is unnatural, fornication is unnatural, adultery is unnatural, murdering by your own is unnatural, stealing is unnatural and so on...", what do you do when you encounter a God like this one, that goes exactly against "human nature" as we know it? In fact, He goes exactly according to human nature as it was created, pure, the human nature we have now is damaged by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Also, you are wrong, my theology does not proceed from Niceea, but from the very early moments of christianity. That is why we have the theology of St. Clement the Roman, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias of Hierapolis, Quadratus... and other hundreds of Church Fathers that were born even centuries before Niceea.
"Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ, our God"
 - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

[Image: ixs081.png]
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#22
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 11:47 am)Wryetui Wrote: "Religions and gods are human creations they reflect the nature of their creators.", I do not think you are completely wrong in this, you actually have a point, in my opinion. All the religions in this world reflect the desires of the humans worshipping them, for example, the greeks and romans who were so avid in war created a God called Marte (or its counterpart) to favor their desire of war, they saw the greatest force they ever knew, the climate, and gave it a name, Zeus, and so on with other so called deities. But what do you do when you find a God that is against human nature? How is Jesus Christ the reflection of the human nature? Human nature has a "natural" appetite for sexual intercourse and a strong sexual desire, but our God told us clearly: "Sexuality must only be for marriage, so know that everytime you feel sexually attracted to someone, and you indulge in that feeling, you are sinning, masturbation is unnatural, homosexuality is unnatural, zoophilia is unnatural, fornication is unnatural, adultery is unnatural, murdering by your own is unnatural, stealing is unnatural and so on...", what do you do when you encounter a God like this one, that goes exactly against "human nature" as we know it? In fact, He goes exactly according to human nature as it was created, pure, the human nature we have now is damaged by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Also, you are wrong, my theology does not proceed from Niceea, but from the very early moments of christianity. That is why we have the theology of St. Clement the Roman, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias of Hierapolis, Quadratus... and other hundreds of Church Fathers that were born even centuries before Niceea.

So, essentially, you're claiming that all those other religions are made up by humans, but not yours. Got it.

Jesus Christ (though a reformer in his own right) was in every way a Hebrew of the First Century. The attributes assigned by the Bible to him and to God are those of the religion/culture of the time. There are many religions which try to control/regulate human sexuality into a form that is useful to the Powers That Be, in their time and place, and they tend to agree with your Christian ideas about the importance of (female, anyway) virginity and marriage-before-sex. Among them are Hinduism and Islam, for instance.

Your god of the OT is depicted as what exactly what we'd expect from a Patriarchal, genocidal war band's priests. Jesus the Reformer (what we can glean of the historical version of him, that is, not the version "increasingly shown as a magic man" and finally as "the son of God" in the NT, as the various versions about him were written down) still remains a product of his time and place. What we mean by Nicea is that there were several early, competing versions of Christianity, which the Orthodox church eventually dominated and set their particular version down in that Council as "The Nicene Creed", as well as dictating which Gospels would "count", which early "church father" writers would be preserved, etc. Anyone who has spent any time in actual scholarship on that subject is aware that the version handed down to us today is only one of the versions that originally existed, and we have no way of knowing what else was lost.

Oh, and by the way, homosexuality and masturbation are perfectly natural. They're seen throughout the animal kingdom. The only part humans seem to invented is the concept of marriage. That you link those actions, by listing them in the same string, to things that are universally decried because of their harm factor (such as murder, stealing, etc.) shows us how warped your view of reality is.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#23
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 11:47 am)Wryetui Wrote: Also, you are wrong, my theology does not proceed from Niceea, but from the very early moments of christianity. That is why we have the theology of St. Clement the Roman, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias of Hierapolis, Quadratus... and other hundreds of Church Fathers that were born even centuries before Niceea.

So when I point out what you say and its implications you try and change what you say. From now on no more mister nice guy. Expect me to fuck you over with everything in may arsenal from now on. After I'm done your religion sphincter will be begging for mercy.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

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#24
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 2:08 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 11:47 am)Wryetui Wrote: Also, you are wrong, my theology does not proceed from Niceea, but from the very early moments of christianity. That is why we have the theology of St. Clement the Roman, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias of Hierapolis, Quadratus... and other hundreds of Church Fathers that were born even centuries before Niceea.

So when I point out what you say and its implications you try and change what you say. From now on no more mister nice guy. Expect me to fuck you over with everything in may arsenal from now on. After I'm done your religion sphincter will be begging for mercy.

I did not change anything of what you said, you are incorrect, you implied that my theology is an invention of Niceea and I pointed out that that is not possible, since we have hundreds of Church Fathers that are very prior to Niceea.

This kind of aggressivity can only be the product of a deep hate that exists towards God. It is very clear to me that you do believe in God, but hate Him so much that you want to deny it. Do you think I am misrepresenting your beliefs? I know what you will answer to me: "You are wrong! How can I hate something in which I do not believe that exists? I believe in science and I believe your God is an invention, and so on...", but I will tell you the truth I knew without even knowing you, you do hate God and you do not want Him to exist, and you have accepted every belief that disproves God. It is obvious that you are not interested in a sincere discussion, you only want to "destroy" my beliefs, which are completely unknown to you even though you claim you know them, in order for them not to dismantle your shield against God. I do not think we could actually have a debate since it will not be a debate, just you aggresively and compulsively trying to convince me of your ideas, and since I am not a fan of proselytism, I am not interested in careless slurs. You are free to talk to me anytime you consider you are open to debate and to listen what other people have to say to you.
"Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ, our God"
 - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

[Image: ixs081.png]
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#25
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote: I did not change anything of what you said, you are incorrect, you implied that my theology is an invention of Niceea and I pointed out that that is not possible, since we have hundreds of Church Fathers that are very prior to Niceea.

This kind of aggressivity can only be the product of a deep hate that exists towards God. It is very clear to me that you do believe in God, but hate Him so much that you want to deny it. Do you think I am misrepresenting your beliefs? I know what you will answer to me: "You are wrong! How can I hate something in which I do not believe that exists? I believe in science and I believe your God is an invention, and so on...", but I will tell you the truth I knew without even knowing you, you do hate God and you do not want Him to exist, and you have accepted every belief that disproves God. It is obvious that you are not interested in a sincere discussion, you only want to "destroy" my beliefs, which are completely unknown to you even though you claim you know them, in order for them not to dismantle your shield against God. I do not think we could actually have a debate since it will not be a debate, just you aggresively and compulsively trying to convince me of your ideas, and since I am not a fan of proselytism, I am not interested in careless slurs. You are free to talk to me anytime you consider you are open to debate and to listen what other people have to say to you.

I'm going to offer you a little advice for life: Don't be an asshole.

As a sub-clause to "Don't be an asshole", I'd include, "When people tell you what they are or what they think, it's an asshole move to tell them what they really think."

When we tell you that most of us are former Believers, raised in the church family (usually because of our own families, of course), and that we understand your claims about the Bible and the religion that springs from it, we mean it. We have chosen to reject the claims as invalid. It's really that simple.

I'll also note that you're playing a very dishonest game, here, by focusing only on the people who swear at you and show no interest in debating or discussing with you, while ignoring those who attempt to engage you on a more human level. You sling labels our way, en masse, like "angry" and "aggressive" and "compulsive", as if they apply to the group.

I have been nothing but polite, until calling you an asshole (technically, I said what you did was the action of an asshole, and that you shouldn't do that), and yet I think the same things they do.

You and I disbelieve in every god that was ever invented by humans... except you've held on to one. How you feel about the Greeks inventing Zeus, and then the Romans borrowing it and "inventing" Jupiter, we feel about what Christians did to the beliefs of the Iron-Age Hebrews. We think exactly what you think about Hinduism. But your pet religion is so precious to you that you have to pretend to yourself that others reject it for unsound reasons, since it just can't possibly occur to you that we know about your religion and simply choose to treat it the way you treat Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Shintoists, Baha'i, etc.

You are so arrogant and self-absorbed in your belief set that you can't even fathom how insulting and enraging it is to come talk to us the way you have. But I assure you, if a Muslim came to a Christian forum and said that you "really" worshiped Allah and "really knew in your heart" that Muhammad was his final Prophet, you'd be furious. And rightfully so.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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#26
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 2:08 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:


 
Quote:but I will tell you the truth I knew without even knowing you, you do hate God and you do not want Him to exist, and you have accepted every belief that disproves God.

Quote: since I am not a fan of proselytism, I am not interested in careless slurs.


WHAT . . . AN . . . ASSHOLE.  How DARE you assert that we hate god even after you have been told, clearly, that we do not? 
And more lies: "I am not a fan of proselytism".  You are HERE, preaching at a group of self-professed atheists, and throwing infantile temper tantrums when we tell you what you don't want to hear.  What do YOU call that?  No, it's not debate for your education, it's proselytisation.  And for someone who isn't interested in careless slurs, you sure like to insult people.   
We are intelligent adults, who rather like research.  We're quite capable of choosing what we do and do not believe.  You come in here to preach, which indicates that you think we're stupid and deluded and we need your guidance.  This is disrespect on your part.  We have no need of your god, your book, your church fathers, your theologians, and your philosophy.  And we certainly do not need your infantile insults.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#27
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

 

 


WHAT . . . AN . . . ASSHOLE.  How DARE you assert that we hate god even after you have been told, clearly, that we do not? 
And more lies: "I am not a fan of proselytism".  You are HERE, preaching at a group of self-professed atheists, and throwing infantile temper tantrums when we tell you what you don't want to hear.  What do YOU call that?  No, it's not debate for your education, it's proselytisation.  And for someone who isn't interested in careless slurs, you sure like to insult people.   
We are intelligent adults, who rather like research.  We're quite capable of choosing what we do and do not believe.  You come in here to preach, which indicates that you think we're stupid and deluded and we need your guidance.  This is disrespect on your part.  We have no need of your god, your book, your church fathers, your theologians, and your philosophy.  And we certainly do not need your infantile insults.

Of course. Forgive me.
"Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ, our God"
 - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

[Image: ixs081.png]
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#28
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 7:09 pm)Wryetui Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:


Of course. Forgive me.

You have no need of my forgiveness.  I'm a stranger.  
But my forgiveness in this arena is given after observation of behavior.  There are theists here who are well-loved, welcome members of this group.  They have earned that respect by not preaching.  This is not to say that they are in any way silenced.  If a relevant question is posed, they state their stance on the issue clearly.  Sometimes there is even quite a bit of debate.  You could join their ranks.  Just grow a thicker skin and do not respond to two insults with twenty - that's all it would take. You seem quite bright. 
Who knows, we might even end up being friends.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#29
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 7:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 7:09 pm)Wryetui Wrote: Of course. Forgive me.

You have no need of my forgiveness.  I'm a stranger.  
But my forgiveness in this arena is given after observation of behavior.  There are theists here who are well-loved, welcome members of this group.  They have earned that respect by not preaching.  This is not to say that they are in any way silenced.  If a relevant question is posed, they state their stance on the issue clearly.  Sometimes there is even quite a bit of debate.  You could join their ranks.  Just grow a thicker skin and do not respond to two insults with twenty - that's all it would take. You seem quite bright. 
Who knows, we might even end up being friends.

I thank you for your kind words, but I am a indeed confused. I am not a person who insults, that is not my style, and I truly do not see when, in this brief conversation we had, when did I insulted. Of course, it is not relevant, if I insulted someone I apologize, but I am sincere when I say I do not know where did I insult anyone. Also, I do not have the feeling that I proselytized anyone, actually. I am here to give my opinion about the OP and I did it, I am not a person who proselytizes, and God knows (and history) that the Orthodox Church does not have proselytizing in her behavior.

(May 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote: I did not change anything of what you said, you are incorrect, you implied that my theology is an invention of Niceea and I pointed out that that is not possible, since we have hundreds of Church Fathers that are very prior to Niceea.

This kind of aggressivity can only be the product of a deep hate that exists towards God. It is very clear to me that you do believe in God, but hate Him so much that you want to deny it. Do you think I am misrepresenting your beliefs? I know what you will answer to me: "You are wrong! How can I hate something in which I do not believe that exists? I believe in science and I believe your God is an invention, and so on...", but I will tell you the truth I knew without even knowing you, you do hate God and you do not want Him to exist, and you have accepted every belief that disproves God. It is obvious that you are not interested in a sincere discussion, you only want to "destroy" my beliefs, which are completely unknown to you even though you claim you know them, in order for them not to dismantle your shield against God. I do not think we could actually have a debate since it will not be a debate, just you aggresively and compulsively trying to convince me of your ideas, and since I am not a fan of proselytism, I am not interested in careless slurs. You are free to talk to me anytime you consider you are open to debate and to listen what other people have to say to you.

I'm going to offer you a little advice for life: Don't be an asshole.

As a sub-clause to "Don't be an asshole", I'd include, "When people tell you what they are or what they think, it's an asshole move to tell them what they really think."

When we tell you that most of us are former Believers, raised in the church family (usually because of our own families, of course), and that we understand your claims about the Bible and the religion that springs from it, we mean it. We have chosen to reject the claims as invalid. It's really that simple.

I'll also note that you're playing a very dishonest game, here, by focusing only on the people who swear at you and show no interest in debating or discussing with you, while ignoring those who attempt to engage you on a more human level. You sling labels our way, en masse, like "angry" and "aggressive" and "compulsive", as if they apply to the group.

I have been nothing but polite, until calling you an asshole (technically, I said what you did was the action of an asshole, and that you shouldn't do that), and yet I think the same things they do.

You and I disbelieve in every god that was ever invented by humans... except you've held on to one. How you feel about the Greeks inventing Zeus, and then the Romans borrowing it and "inventing" Jupiter, we feel about what Christians did to the beliefs of the Iron-Age Hebrews. We think exactly what you think about Hinduism. But your pet religion is so precious to you that you have to pretend to yourself that others reject it for unsound reasons, since it just can't possibly occur to you that we know about your religion and simply choose to treat it the way you treat Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Shintoists, Baha'i, etc.

You are so arrogant and self-absorbed in your belief set that you can't even fathom how insulting and enraging it is to come talk to us the way you have. But I assure you, if a Muslim came to a Christian forum and said that you "really" worshiped Allah and "really knew in your heart" that Muhammad was his final Prophet, you'd be furious. And rightfully so.
I find two things that begs an answer from me in your post: "I'll also note that you're playing a very dishonest game, here, by focusing only on the people who swear at you and show no interest in debating or discussing with you, while ignoring those who attempt to engage you on a more human level. You sling labels our way, en masse, like "angry" and "aggressive" and "compulsive", as if they apply to the group.", if this is the case, I beg them pardon. Understand that it is difficult for me to answer or see their messagges when there are three or four talking to me and asking me multiple questions that need answering. I invite everyone that wants to ask me certain questions to ask them via private messagging, where no one can "interrupt" (for the lack of a better term).

"But I assure you, if a Muslim came to a Christian forum and said that you "really" worshiped Allah and "really knew in your heart" that Muhammad was his final Prophet, you'd be furious. And rightfully so.", if I am sincere, I would not, and since this actually happened a few times, trust me, I would not. I would do this: How do you know I really worshipped Allah, what are the causes and the nature of this statement? The same with the second question. I find fury unnecessary and unproductive, but I can know where your fury come from. From the little psychology I know, fury usually comes from unjustice. I have produced an unjustice to you when I "claimed" that "you are actually a liar and that you really hate God inside of you" (this is what you understood, but my statement was not that black and white), you considered this an unjustice since you do not believe this and I wrongfully attributed it to you. It is a natural response, however, natural responses are not always productive, and we have to focus on the potentiality of our debate, not on the actuality of it.
"Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ, our God"
 - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

[Image: ixs081.png]
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#30
RE: "heaven" meme on facebook
(May 1, 2016 at 7:53 pm)Wryetui Wrote:
(May 1, 2016 at 7:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:


I thank you for your kind words, but I am a indeed confused. I am not a person who insults, that is not my style, and I truly do not see when, in this brief conversation we had, when did I insulted. Of course, it is not relevant, if I insulted someone I apologize, but I am sincere when I say I do not know where did I insult anyone. Also, I do not have the feeling that I proselytized anyone, actually. I am here to give my opinion about the OP and I did it, I am not a person who proselytizes, and God knows (and history) that the Orthodox Church does not have proselytizing in her behavior.

(May 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:



I'm the original poster.  The OP shared a reaction to a meme - - people living their lives here for the sole purpose of getting into heaven.  (Most of us here don't believe an afterlife exists.)  The OP shared personal experience.  Your first post in this thread bolded parts of them and declared them to be theologically wrong.  Then you accused someone who was raised Protestant, and called herself a xtian for 46 years, of having the wrong idea about christianity.  Not an auspicious beginning, since the OP clearly was not about "correct theology".   

We told you what we believe, and you dismissed those posts.  If you say that we lack understanding, that is an insult.  If you say that we hate god, just because you can't fathom not "knowing" god is there (despite claiming to convert to orthodoxy from atheism) that is not only an insult, that is a lie, and that is calling everyone who tried to explain our position to you a liar.  If you declare that no debate is possible here, you are insulting our intellect.  -- Many folks here are brilliant debaters, and well-versed in logical fallacies.  (Some would even cheerfully debate points of theology with you - some have studied it at length.  Even though I think many here would agree with me that theology is trying to study something that doesn't exist.)  If you take the stance that you have the "truth" and post walls of texts for us to read, you are being disrespectful and arrogant.  You seem to think that we need to be taught.  We don't.  And this "teaching" stance is proselytizing.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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