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So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
#1
So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
No, not the current jackoff.  I mean the whole concept of a papacy which seems to have been back dated into the so-called early history of the church...such history being no more historical than that of paul and jesus.

Let's begin with a story that everyone has heard, pope Leo I convincing Attila the Hun not to attack Rome.

As the story goes after being beaten at Chalons-sur-Marne in 451 by a coalition of Romans, Visigoths and a few others, Attila withdrew into Hungary to regroup.  In 452 he was back this time moving on Italy.  The coalition had broken up with the Visigoths heading home leaving Flavius Aetius and his Roman force outnumbered.   Attila captured the city of Aquileia at the head of the Adriatic after a siege which took longer than anticipated.  As the story goes the way the church likes to tell it, pope leo ran out to meet Attila and talked him out of marching on Rome....( and the angels sing and god smiles and all that other holy horseshit they love to trot out.)

There are some problems with the story.  First off, Attila was not an idiot.  He would have known that Rome had been sacked by the Goths 40 years earlier and since it was no longer the capitol of the Roman world the amount of wealth to be found there would have been minor.  Even more importantly, Attila was no where near Rome at the time.  As shown in this map

[Image: huninvasion.jpg]

Ravenna was then the capitol of the Western Roman Empire and that was where he was heading.  After taking Aquileia he moved SW and overran Padua before sending a recon in force to terrorize the Po Valley as far as Milan.  Only then did he begin a half-hearted effort to move south but he had not reached the Po River when the delegation - not just Leo - arrived.  This included a former consul and a former praefectus urbii but the account of the meeting was given by a man called Prosper, the pope's secretary more or less, and he acted as if the others weren't there.

Now, other contemporary historians note that there were numerous other factors at play which entered into the discussion.  First the delay at Aquileia meant that it was far too late in the season to even contemplate a siege of Ravenna which as the capitol was far stronger than Aquileia.  Second, the writer Hydatius records that the Huns had been ravaged by a plague during that siege and which might account for Attila's ponderous advance afterwards.  The marshes around the Adriatic probably housed all manner of mosquitos that the steppe-living Huns would have never encountered.  Third, Jordanes and Procopius note that the Eastern Roman emperor, Marcian, had picked that moment to hit the easternmost edge of the Hunnish Empire with an attack and Attila would have realized that he was over-extended, particularly after the slaughter at Chalons a year earlier and would not have wanted to be cut off by winter snows. 

Such obvious military considerations did not serve the church's purpose especially as Leo I was the prime proponent of the doctrine of papal primacy in which he used the fiction of peter in Rome to claim that he was the rightful successor to fucking jesus himself. 

This little bullshit story of Leo and Attila should be seen in the context of church propaganda.  The fuckers never tire of telling how important they are.
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#2
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
Personally I like Alexander VI most. Not only because he's my namesake or adopted namesake, but because he had a healthy attitude towards the papacy. Make the most of it for his and his family's sake and feast as if there was no tomorrow.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
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#3
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
Since the Mormons let the religion play book slip into the public domain, I'm not too surprised that with some digging researches have found some skullduggery, contrivance and ret-conning in the Catholic orbit.

For individuals planning to start their own religion someday (for fun and profit) these lessons in how the sausage is made are invaluable.

I like the pope noted above too. My he was a sleazy SOB, gotta lurv him.
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#4
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
The Papacy became 'hot shit' as soon as the Pope was able to raise armies.

Funny how that works, innit?

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#5
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
(May 16, 2016 at 6:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The Papacy became 'hot shit' as soon as the Pope was able to raise armies.

Oh, it became hot shit as soon as there was a comfy place between the Roman emperors ass cheeks. The pope's armies are overrated in any case. The only one doing his own conquest was Alex VI through his son. The other ones let others do the fighting for them. Until Charles V somehow forgot to pay his mercenaries right at the gates of Rome, that is.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
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#6
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
Quote:Until Charles V somehow forgot to pay his mercenaries right at the gates of Rome, that is.

Details.... details.
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#7
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
(May 16, 2016 at 7:15 pm)abaris Wrote:
(May 16, 2016 at 6:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The Papacy became 'hot shit' as soon as the Pope was able to raise armies.

Oh, it became hot shit as soon as there was a comfy place between the Roman emperors ass cheeks. The pope's armies are overrated in any case. The only one doing his own conquest was Alex VI through his son. The other ones let others do the fighting for them. Until Charles V somehow forgot to pay his mercenaries right at the gates of Rome, that is.

There's more than one way to raise an army, mate.

But your mercenaries comment puts me in mind of that delightful scene from 'Becket'. Henry II is meeting with his bishops and demanding money. The Archbishop whines, 'My Lord, these exemption were granted to the Church by your noble grandfather. Surely you intend to honour his good intentions?'

Henry fires back, 'I have sent for 10 000 Swiss mercenaries to help me fight the French, and NO ONE has ever paid the Swiss with good intentions.'

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#8
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
(May 16, 2016 at 5:45 pm)abaris Wrote: Personally I like Alexander VI most. Not only because he's my namesake or adopted namesake, but because he had a healthy attitude towards the papacy. Make the most of it for his and his family's sake and feast as if there was no tomorrow.

Wasn't he the guy they let rot for three days because they were afraid to touch him because of his many sins?
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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#9
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
Nope.  Must have been some other crook.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/alexanderVI.htm


Quote:The Death of Pope Alexander VI, 1503
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#10
RE: So When Did The Pope Become Hot Shit?
If I remember my Asimov correctly:

There were lots of bishops, but the bishops of the most prosperous and powerful towns were the most powerful. That meant that the bishops of Constantinople, Cairo, and Rome were the top three, a leading triad, a triumvirate, or maybe a father, son, and holy ghost. To the extent that anybody was in charge of the church, it was these three.

Then Cairo was conquered by Rome, and lost all of its importance. So then there were just two bishops that--if they weren't all equal--seemed to outrank the others. Rome and Constantinople were the leading partners and rivals.

Part of why they were rivals was because symbolism doesn't work the same for everybody. In the east, the priests wore beards, and so, to the western priests, they looked like German barbarians. In the west, the priests were clean-shaven and celibate, so, to the priests in the east, they looked like eunuchs.

In any case, the church broke into two parts, each with one primary bishop. The bishop of Rome had no real rival in the western church. He was the top dog.

About the time of Leo, or a little before that, people in the west quit calling all bishops "Pope," which means "father." They kept using "Pope" for the bishop of Rome, but started using synonyms for other bishops.

Thus it is fair to call Leo the first pope.
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