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How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
#31
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
(May 18, 2016 at 6:26 am)bennyboy Wrote: It [God] is not interacting with Mankind since any interaction of sufficient import should provide sufficient evidence of existence.
Whether something is sufficient or not is rather subjective. Personally, I now find it more than sufficient, kind of obvious actually, like one of those optical illusions that looks random until someone tells you what it is, like a dalmatian in the woods, and then from there you cannot stop seeing the image.

But like I said, that's me, personally, today. Twenty years ago, when I was an atheist, I would have laughed at the notion. So I understand where you are coming from. You have intelligence and an inquisitive mind, bennyboy, and you have always treated me with respect. I do not mean that to sound patronizing. There is no final destination to this intellectual journey.
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#32
RE: How does one respond to this
Well, here you go fruyian! I used the original transcript as I found it easier. I've inserted my commentary in italics. It's all fairly hasty, but his nonsense is standard and it's not hard to spot the mistakes. Feel free to ask me to elaborate on anything further!

As I guessed earlier, he's doing a lot of razing the ground by presuming all your statements are claims of absolute truth and then trying to make them self refuting. This isn't a reasonable or honest approach. And you could just do the same to virtually anything he says, and achieve the same result (nothing). It's just trying to avoid and stifle discussion.


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#33
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
Quote:The scientific method is how we learn about reality. Philosophy alone can only investigate abstract systems. So yes, if something literally exists in reality, then it should exhibit some sort of empirical behaviour.

You're totally begging the question.
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#34
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
(May 19, 2016 at 10:51 am)robvalue Wrote:
The scientific method is how we learn about reality. Philosophy alone can only investigate abstract systems. So yes, if something literally exists in reality, then it should exhibit some sort of empirical behaviour. Otherwise you're simply extrapolating your own simplified, assumed models about reality... or else he is claiming god doesn't literally exist, but is only abstract. That's a claim that doesn't even need supporting.
Rob, that was quite a lot of work!
I had a few questions about this response. 
The scientific method is how we learn about reality? Don't you mean the physical world
Philosophy alone can only investigate abstract systems?? Why would this be true? Among other reasons, the fact that science is governed by philosophy would make that statement untrue.
General Note: I think the unnamed antagonist is pressing the point that while Fruyian is demanding physical evidence, none is technically needed. I don't think he ever said there wasn't any. I can see why he would not want to debate quality of evidence--it never goes anywhere. 
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#35
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
Yes, reality is the physical world. Physical means (literally) real; as opposed to an abstract concept. "Nonphysical existence" is a contradiction in terms, as far as I can see.

Yes, philosophy alone deals only with the abstract. As soon as you take any measurements from reality, you're doing science as well.

"Science" is not part of reality, it's a method. So yes, science is regulated by philosophy; it requires underpinning principles. It is like the adapter between philosophy and reality.

[Feel free to correct me science dudes!]
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#36
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
"Science is like the adapter between philosophy and reality."

I just made that up. Is that accurate?

Is it sexy?
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#37
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
(May 19, 2016 at 1:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, reality is the physical world. Physical means (literally) real
No it doesn't. You're limiting the definition to fit your narrow ontology. The great irony here is that in metaphysics your stance is called "anti-realism".
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#38
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
If any science dudes want to weigh in on whether "real/existent" and "physical" mean the same thing, I'd be interested.

If not, I'd love to know the difference.
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#39
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
(May 19, 2016 at 2:25 pm)robvalue Wrote: If any science dudes want to weigh in on whether "real/existent" and "physical" mean the same thing, I'd be interested.

If not, I'd love to know the difference.

Maybe you should invite math dudes too.
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#40
RE: How does one respond to this argument?It's long but an interesting read. Thanks :)
(May 18, 2016 at 12:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(May 17, 2016 at 4:58 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Also[the] no scientific method isn't the only way to gain knowledge but it is the only way to ascertain and validate said knowledge against our observable reality.

Do you have a scientific study or physical evidence to prove that the scientific method is the only way to validate knowledge beliefs? (knowledge is belief that has already been justified as true)

Oh is there a way to validate beliefs against observable reality without science? please do tell what it is.
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

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