Reduced to a Piece of Clay: False Humility and Human Dignity

[Rhondazvous]

And Christians, if god's definition of righteousness is so far removed from human understanding, what makes you think you understand what he means by salvation? Maybe you'll get to judgment day and be told that what you thought he meant isn't what he actually meant. Maybe you'll get there and be told to go back and read the whole bible to understand salvation in context.

[Drich]

It’s a fact that I cannot say I have never done anything bad willfully and with the knowledge that it was bad, sometimes even because it was bad. But that is still no justification for the things god has done in the bible or for the eternal punishment promised there.  

Sin is sometimes described as a sickness. To put it another way, let's say I'm infected with the zombie virus, not a zombie (yet) just a carrier/someone who has the virus that can indeed infect others. Now, should I be allowed to co mingle with the rest of society or should I be separated??

What if I were a really really 'good person?' does it matter what type of person I was if what is being looked at is whether or not I carry the virus?

What if their were a cure or a vaccine that nullified the virus and I being a 'good person' who has done many 'good deeds' feel I don't need to take the vaccine because my 'good deeds' and the fact that I personally do not see dead flesh reanimating on me, decide I do not need to take the antidote because again I am a 'good person' Despite any mandate issued or given...

What if.. their was a public mandate to take the vaccine or be put to death? should I be spared death being that I am fully infected and can infect others, but still refuse to be cured because I 'feel' my morals would not allow me to hurt anyone, even though the virus still infects others?

Do you see the parallel here?

Sin has nothing to do with your 'morality.' It is an infection that we all have, and can be cured of despite how 'moral' we label ourselves. Sin like a virus has absolutely nothing to do with your deeds, but rather a standard you can never obtain. So then God provides a cure for 'sin.' But, you've changed the meaning of sin from a 'sickness' that you can not control to morality you think you can, and you make God 'evil' for insisting that you be inoculated or be put to death for spreading your infection.

Can a parent who beats his child to a pulp, burns him with a clothes iron, deprives him of food and locks him in a closet for three days justify himself because the child disobeyed him?

Your god is supposed to be more not less good. He’s supposed to have higher principles.
Yet, you and your bible do everything in your power to show that he has no principles beyond might makes right.

Our jails are full of people who think nobody understands them.

So... Might doesn't make right?

Show me a country, political movement, social structure, community really anything where might in not the foundation of 'right.'

Again, if you frame this in the analogy or terms I listed above, might is needed to force a separation from the deluded/infected and those who have been cured. Otherwise they/you would force your infection onto everyone who is not already 'sick.'

[Rhondazvous]

It’s a fact that I cannot say I have never done anything bad willfully and with the knowledge that it was bad, sometimes even because it was bad. But that is still no justification for the things god has done in the bible or for the eternal punishment promised there.  

Sin is sometimes described as a sickness. To put it another way, let's say I'm infected with the zombie virus, not a zombie (yet) just a carrier/someone who has the virus that can indeed infect others. Now, should I be allowed to co mingle with the rest of society or should I be separated??

What if I were a really really 'good person?' does it matter what type of person I was if what is being looked at is whether or not I carry the virus?

What if their were a cure or a vaccine that nullified the virus and I being a 'good person' who has done many 'good deeds' feel I don't need to take the vaccine because my 'good deeds' and the fact that I personally do not see dead flesh reanimating on me, decide I do not need to take the antidote because again I am a 'good person' Despite any mandate issued or given...

What if.. their was a public mandate to take the vaccine or be put to death? should I be spared death being that I am fully infected and can infect others, but still refuse to be cured because I 'feel' my morals would not allow me to hurt anyone, even though the virus still infects others?

Do you see the parallel here?

Sin has nothing to do with your 'morality.' It is an infection that we all have, and can be cured of despite how 'moral' we label ourselves. Sin like a virus has absolutely nothing to do with your deeds, but rather a standard you can never obtain. So then God provides a cure for 'sin.' But, you've changed the meaning of sin from a 'sickness' that you can not control to morality you think you can, and you make God 'evil' for insisting that you be inoculated or be put to death for spreading your infection.

Can a parent who beats his child to a pulp, burns him with a clothes iron, deprives him of food and locks him in a closet for three days justify himself because the child disobeyed him?

Your god is supposed to be more not less good. He’s supposed to have higher principles.
Yet, you and your bible do everything in your power to show that he has no principles beyond might makes right.

Our jails are full of people who think nobody understands them.

So... Might doesn't make right?

Show me a country, political movement, social structure, community really anything where might in not the foundation of 'right.'

Again, if you frame this in the analogy or terms I listed above, might is needed to force a separation from the deluded/infected and those who have been cured. Otherwise they/you would force your infection onto everyone who is not already 'sick.'

As always, Christian's best argument depends on a hypothetical "IF," rather than reality. Since god put the original tree of knowledge in the garden when Adam had no way to know it was evil to disobey god, your god is still responsible for the presence of sin in the world.

I don't accept the so-called cure because it is, like the so-called virus, a fairytale.

[Drich]

Do you honestly think, man is the only sentient being on this planet?
Many would argue Dolphins, elephants, primates, even Dogs all to one degree or another can check these very same attributes of this list, yet every single one of those animals are subject and have been subjugated to man's will in one way or another.

So then how are we to them any different than what you are saying God sees us?


how so?

Yes, human's have a double standard and do not always treat others the way we want to be treated.  But when you plays tu quoque you demonstrate that the nature of your god is no better than the nature of humans.

-Or-
what I am doing is showing you that the behavior you are trying to vilify in of itself is 'morally' neutral. Meaning is not a good or intrinsically bad behavior. it is the details or the abuse of power that makes this behavior wicked. Inturn if an all knowing all powerful being who loved us pushed us though this process and we came out truly more happy on the other end, then this 'sculpting' process can be considered a 'good' thing.

Take for instance a Dog. a natural/wild dog is not something you want in your house while you and your children sleep, but a tame or even a well trained dog can be much more than just a pet. He can be a member of the family.
Now a wild dog may not think he wants to live a tame dog's life, but at the same time if he is given or knows of both lives the dog will choose the easier life. What this means is just because we tame an animal (subjugate it and provide a role for it) does not mean this is a bad thing for the animal. The animal may truly enjoy the role we have for it. Like wise an all knowing all powerful God knows exactly what we are designed and purposed to do. I can personally say there is no greater joy/sense of contentment than full filling the role we are created to do. It's like being a parent (yes it is hard even objectionable at times) but for those of us built to be parents their is no greater rewarding job than to be a parent. Some even feel or endure great loss when they they can not full fill a perceived roll.

This is what your passage in romans is describing. The roles we have been given and God's authority to give us such roles.

[Drich]

Sin is sometimes described as a sickness. To put it another way, let's say I'm infected with the zombie virus, not a zombie (yet) just a carrier/someone who has the virus that can indeed infect others. Now, should I be allowed to co mingle with the rest of society or should I be separated??

What if I were a really really 'good person?' does it matter what type of person I was if what is being looked at is whether or not I carry the virus?

What if their were a cure or a vaccine that nullified the virus and I being a 'good person' who has done many 'good deeds' feel I don't need to take the vaccine because my 'good deeds' and the fact that I personally do not see dead flesh reanimating on me, decide I do not need to take the antidote because again I am a 'good person' Despite any mandate issued or given...

What if.. their was a public mandate to take the vaccine or be put to death? should I be spared death being that I am fully infected and can infect others, but still refuse to be cured because I 'feel' my morals would not allow me to hurt anyone, even though the virus still infects others?

Do you see the parallel here?

Sin has nothing to do with your 'morality.' It is an infection that we all have, and can be cured of despite how 'moral' we label ourselves. Sin like a virus has absolutely nothing to do with your deeds, but rather a standard you can never obtain. So then God provides a cure for 'sin.' But, you've changed the meaning of sin from a 'sickness' that you can not control to morality you think you can, and you make God 'evil' for insisting that you be inoculated or be put to death for spreading your infection.

So... Might doesn't make right?

Show me a country, political movement, social structure, community really anything where might in not the foundation of 'right.'

Again, if you frame this in the analogy or terms I listed above, might is needed to force a separation from the deluded/infected and those who have been cured. Otherwise they/you would force your infection onto everyone who is not already 'sick.'

As always, Christian's best argument depends on a hypothetical "IF," rather than reality.  Since god put the original tree of knowledge in the garden when Adam had no way to know it was evil to disobey god, your god is still responsible for the presence of sin in the world.  

I don't accept the so-called cure because it is, like the so-called virus, a fairytale.

Typical atheist cop out..

Atheist: "I want to indite god using my morals and the contrast found in the bible as evidence as to his wicked nature."

Theist: Uses same bible to clarify so atheist finally understands

Atheist: then moves to dismiss based on everything being a fairy tale..

Theist: then asks, if everything is fair tale then from where does this indictment come from? _or rather if the bible can be used as evidence to indite God, why can't it be used to vindicate Him as well? why must their be some unspecified source that only top scientist can identify and magically approve of, if the subject of God's indictment is valid when you first make it?

Atheist: shut up your stupid.

[John V]

But nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why hast thou made me thus?”

Who am i? I am a human, a sentient being. I have thoughts and feelings. I have opinions and awareness. I can recognize injustice and oppression.

Does it make sense to believe that god created me with all these wonderful faculties and then turned around expecting me to act like a lifeless piece of clay (as some versions render this verse)?

No, it does not make sense to believe that. So, these versions that you refer to but for some reason don't name or quote are suspect.

[Rhondazvous]

Keep trying to defend the indefensible, Drippy.

But for the sake of others who read this I ask. Of the ten evil things the god of the bible did to people in biblical times that I listed above. Of the things that happen to humans today which the Church tells us god either commits or permits, can there be any justification based on end results? So god set Adam up to sin just so he could make my neighbor a better person by giving him cancer? My friend’s husband lost his leg because god in his infinite wisdom and power knew that he could not teach him what he needed to know in a world where there is no diabetes.

Go figure. Please, go and fucking figure.

[Drich]

Keep trying to defend the indefensible, Drippy.

But for the sake of others who read this I ask. Of the ten evil things the god of the bible did to people in biblical times that I listed above. Of the things that happen to humans today which the Church tells us god either commits or permits, can there be any justification based on end results?  So god set Adam up to sin just so he could make my neighbor a better person by giving him cancer? My friend’s husband lost his leg because god in his infinite wisdom and power knew that he could not teach him what he needed to know in a world where there is no diabetes.

Go figure. Please, go and fucking figure.

what is indefensible about what I laid out?

I used a modern and relevant analogy that describes the problem of sin very accurately, and placed in a senerio you can/should be able to relate to.

In that you see sin/Hell as a morality issue when God see and has labeled it as an infection. you want to pretend that good works is the cure when only the vaccine provided by atonement can cure this illness. you want to label God's actions as harsh or even evil, but when framed out in the proper way, we would act the same way.

So again, How is this indefensible? or are you just speaking to a stereotype you did not think a theist should be able to overcome and simply do not know how else to respond?

[Rhondazvous]

Who am i? I am a human, a sentient being. I have thoughts and feelings. I have opinions and awareness. I can recognize injustice and oppression.

Does it make sense to believe that god created me with all these wonderful faculties and then turned around expecting me to act like a lifeless piece of clay (as some versions render this verse)?

No, it does not make sense to believe that. So, these versions that you refer to but for some reason don't name or quote are suspect.

1. (2 Samuel 24. 1 Chronicles 21) Killed 70,000 men because King David held a census.
2. (Job 1:12-19) Killed all Job’s children and expected his wife to be happy. Just forget the 10 children she gave birth to and watched grow up as if children are component parts that can be replaced when damaged.
3. (Exodus 21:7) Gave fathers instructions on how to sell their daughters into sexual slavery.
4. (Deuteronomy 22: 23,24) Ordered women to be put to death if they were raped in the city where they could have cried for help. Since they didn’t cry out that makes them accomplice of this crime against their husbands.
5. (Mark 4: 11,1 2)Jesus told his disciples that he spoke in parables so those outside would not be able to understand, repent and be saved.
6. (Genesis 11) Biblical god confused people’s language when they were getting along and working peacefully, just because he was intimidated by what humans could accomplish and he didn’t know that they couldn’t build a tower to heaven.
7. (Numbers 31: 12-18) Became murderously angry when the Israelites had mercy on the people he had told them to kill.
8. (Numbers 31 We just saw how Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and keep the young girls for their own sexual pleasures) Ordered Moses to slaughter the people of his father in law who had taken him in and given him his daughter when he was running from justice after killing an Egyptian.
9. (Leviticus 25: 44-46) Told his people not to treat their foreign slaves the same way they treated Jewish slaves
10. (Galatians 3:22* , Job 1:22** )Holds all humans personally and eternally accountable for the sin of one man, but does not want to be held accountable for his own actions.
* So we were put under sin just so we can have faith in Jesus? Would you cut and burn your child just so you can practice your first aid skills?

** So it’s a sin to charge god with his own actions? God makes a deal with Satan and Job blames his mother for giving him birth (Job 3:11,12).

[Thomas Kelly252525]

No, it does not make sense to believe that. So, these versions that you refer to but for some reason don't name or quote are suspect.

1. (2 Samuel 24. 1 Chronicles 21) Killed 70,000 men because King David held a census.
2. (Job 1:12-19) Killed all Job’s children and expected his wife to be happy. Just forget the 10 children she gave birth to and watched grow up as if children are component parts that can be replaced when damaged.
3. (Exodus 21:7) Gave fathers instructions on how to sell their daughters into sexual slavery.
4. (Deuteronomy 22: 23,24) Ordered women to be put to death if they were raped in the city where they could have cried for help. Since they didn’t cry out that makes them accomplice of this crime against their husbands.
5. (Mark 4: 11,1 2)Jesus told his disciples that he spoke in parables so those outside would not be able to understand, repent and be saved.
6. (Genesis 11) Biblical god confused people’s language when they were getting along and working peacefully, just because he was intimidated by what humans could accomplish and he didn’t know that they couldn’t build a tower to heaven.
7. (Numbers 31: 12-18) Became murderously angry when the Israelites had mercy on the people he had told them to kill.
8. (Numbers 31 We just saw how Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and keep the young girls for their own sexual pleasures) Ordered Moses to slaughter the people of his father in law who had taken him in and given him his daughter when he was running from justice after killing an Egyptian.
9. (Leviticus 25: 44-46) Told his people not to treat their foreign slaves the same way they treated Jewish slaves
10. (Galatians 3:22* , Job 1:22** )Holds all humans personally and eternally accountable for the sin of one man, but does not want to be held accountable for his own actions.
* So we were put under sin just so we can have faith in Jesus?  Would you cut and burn your child just so you can practice your first aid skills?

** So it’s a sin to charge god with his own actions? God makes a deal with Satan and Job blames his mother for giving him birth (Job 3:11,12).

Rhondazvous,

Have you ever looked in the Clementine Homilies in Chapter XX - Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us ?