Ehh... free will?

[Alex K]

I wouldn't go so far to say that every particle is causal. Quantum randomness is a thing. It's not violating causality in the sense of changing the past, but not everything on the particle level follows as effect and cause.

This is true.  However, free will and determinism are not really polar opposites.  There's nothing about randomness which implies free will, either.

Absolutely correct. If you add randomness to a deterministic system, free will does not suddenly magically enter. You just have a deterministic system + random noise.

[RozKek]

I was going to get into that if he asked. In that case our decisions are either random or causal. As far as I know in no case can we freely steer the neurons to do what we want to do. And if we can steer the neurons we can always ask why did I steer them in way A instead of way B? 

I agree completely.

Wasn't your choice 

[Alex K]

I agree completely.

Wasn't your choice 

Course not. As always, the facts compelled me

[RozKek]

I wouldn't go so far to say that every particle is causal. Quantum randomness is a thing. It's not violating causality in the sense of changing the past, but not everything on the particle level follows as effect and cause.

This is true.  However, free will and determinism are not really polar opposites.  There's nothing about randomness which implies free will, either.

Depends on the definition. When I pick chocolate over vanilla it's my free choice because no one is holding a gun to my head but why I chose chocolate over vanilla wasn't my choice.

However, free will doesn't even matter because in any case, whether people have a choice or not people will do what makes them and others happy. So I don't care about why I picked chocolate over vanilla, it's irrelevant.

[brewer]

Depends on the definition. When I pick chocolate over vanilla it's my free choice because no one is holding a gun to my head but why I chose chocolate over vanilla wasn't my choice.

Yes it was.

[RozKek]

Depends on the definition. When I pick chocolate over vanilla it's my free choice because no one is holding a gun to my head but why I chose chocolate over vanilla wasn't my choice.

Yes it was.

I have to explain, but you don't? Come on, explain.

[Alex K]

It obviously depends on what you define as "my choice" - what the actual agent is upon which you bestow the label "I". That's a highly nontrivial question because consciousness is not localized in a particular spot in the brain.

[brewer]

Yes it was.

I have to explain, but you don't? Come on, explain.

Are you not part of your brain, is it not part of you? Your neural net choice, your choice.

[RozKek]

I have to explain, but you don't? Come on, explain.

Are you not part of your brain, is it not part of you? Your neural net choice, your choice.

One can also say we're only conscious observers. Even though it is my neural net doesn't mean I ultimately decided it, because I didn't decide how the neurons in my neural net should interact. Like Alex said it's also dependant on how "I" am defined. However you defined I as my brain I assume. However, you say you are your neural net (brain) therefore it is your choice however you don't decide when you get hungry, when you feel pain, when you get the urge to pee, your reflexes, your knee jerk reactions etc but you are still your brain and those things have origins in the brain. Same can be said for your decisions, you are your neural net but the decision isn't under your control the same way your urge to pee isn't under your control.

[brewer]

Are you not part of your brain, is it not part of you? Your neural net choice, your choice.

One can also say we're only conscious observers. Even though it is my neural net doesn't mean I ultimately decided it, because I didn't decide how the neurons in my neural net should interact. Like Alex said it's also dependant on how "I" am defined. However you defined I as my brain I assume. However, you say you are your neural net (brain) therefore it is your choice however you don't decide when you get hungry, when you feel pain, when you get the urge to pee, your reflexes, your knee jerk reactions etc but you are still your brain and those things have origins in the brain. Same can be said for your decisions, you are your neural net but the decision isn't under your control the same way your urge to pee isn't under your control.

My brains involuntary actions/reactions may not be under conscious control but it is still my brain making sub/un conscious decisions for my survival. My conscious brain can over ride some of those activities (short term) if I choose to. You have that ability also.

My conscious decisions are under my control, my neural nets control. That part is the part that I consider free will.

BTW, I didn't define I as brain, I said "part of". My brain is only part of "I". Also, if by "knee jerk" you mean deep tendon reflex, that does not involve your brain at all but peripheral nerve function.

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. A choice.