Faith and achievement

[Jesster]

No. Helping your brain perform better has been tested. There is evidence for this process. This is trust.

Religion and Sport-- BBC

Opinion article. Thanks?

Correlation is not causation. Read more into it with actual scientific journals.

[Excited Penguin]

Same thing for me benny, only it lasted between the time I was thirteen and fifteen, or something like that, and it was mostly about philosophy instead of, in your case, the piano and chess.

I will never ever be able to describe how fucking smart I used to be. It was beyond insane.

Yes, to be honest, I think I hit the "zone" less often than I did around that age.  But that's part of my point.  I think at that age you don't have evidence about your abilities-- so you choose to believe in yourself, and your brain falls in place.  Once you've gotten older, you've made mistakes, had failings, and in general have more "realistic" views about your capabilities.

But I believe even an old guy like me can learn to drop those "realistic" views and get in touch with my real potential, whatever that is (or isn't!).

That's the thing, though, I'm younger than you(I suppose) and yet I reason similarly. I'm going to get it again... It's going to be soon now. Come on, this is just a stretch of bad luck or something. Even as I'm typing this, I'm realizing these might just be excuses. 

I think it takes guts to get back to that zone forcefully. I think you have to do something extreme in order for your mind to wake up like that again. Just a thought...

[bennyboy]

Alright, back to the definition. It's good form to use the most accurate word for what you are trying to describe. Trust is the most accurate word in this case. Faith only loosely hovers around the vicinity. They are similar words, but faith isn't quite the same. You can keep asserting it, but I'm not going to make the same stretch.

I'm telling you that the definition I'm using is drawn from a standard dictionary definition of the word "faith." Do you really want me to link about 20 online dictionaries to make you stop picking at this?

This is still the case in your latest example. Trust works within the range of what you know is possible based on previous data. If you are confident based on what you know of the reality around you, it is trust, even if you are just trusting in yourself. Once you expand that trust beyond data that you have picked up in your experiences, only then are you relying on faith. This does not line up with your assertions.

I don't think you've bothered to read much of what I've said. You are talking past me, but not addressing any of the specific examples. But you announced upon your entry into this thread that you planned to answer without reading, didn't you?

[bennyboy]

That's the thing, though, I'm younger than you(I suppose) and yet I reason similarly. I'm going to get it again... It's going to be soon now. Come on, this is just a stretch of bad luck or something. Even as I'm typing this, I'm realizing these might just be excuses. 

I think it takes guts to get back to that zone forcefully. I think you have to do something extreme in order for your mind to wake up like that again. Just a thought...

In my experience, it starts with a belief in possibility. Even though I lack the capacity to cause myself to hit the zone, I know that if I remember the past times I did so, and believe that potential is "in there somewhere," I have a pretty good chance to get back there. I can't say I know for sure it will, because I don't really understand how I get to that state-- but since I don't have any reason to believe it WON'T happen again, I choose to believe it will.

[Jesster]

Alright, back to the definition. It's good form to use the most accurate word for what you are trying to describe. Trust is the most accurate word in this case. Faith only loosely hovers around the vicinity. They are similar words, but faith isn't quite the same. You can keep asserting it, but I'm not going to make the same stretch.

I'm telling you that the definition I'm using is drawn from a standard dictionary definition of the word "faith."  Do you really want me to link about 20 online dictionaries to make you stop picking at this?

This is still the case in your latest example. Trust works within the range of what you know is possible based on previous data. If you are confident based on what you know of the reality around you, it is trust, even if you are just trusting in yourself. Once you expand that trust beyond data that you have picked up in your experiences, only then are you relying on faith. This does not line up with your assertions.

I don't think you've bothered to read much of what I've said.  You are talking past me, but not addressing any of the specific examples.  But you announced upon your entry into this thread that you planned to answer without reading, didn't you?

My field of fucks is barren when it comes to what dictionary definition you are using. Dictionaries talk about common usage. That just means that people have started using the words as synonyms for far too long. I am saying that the closest word to your explanation is trust and faith is just a loose synonym that is more of a subset. I'm confused at your objection to the word trust. The point is that you are not using the word faith the same way that religions do. If you are just going to keep doing this, then I will move on and let you keep dancing in circles. I have better things to do.

And to your second comment there: not relevant.

[bennyboy]

My field of fucks is  barren when it comes to what dictionary definition you are using. Dictionaries talk about common usage. That just means that people have started using the words as synonyms for far too long. I am saying that the closest word to your explanation is trust and faith is just a loose synonym that is more of a subset. I'm confused at your objection to the word trust. The point is that you are not using the word faith the same way that religions do. If you are just going to keep doing this, then I will move on and let you keep dancing in circles. I have better things to do.

And to your second comment there: not relevant.

Look, Jesster, let's end this right now. I started this thread by defining my terms. "Faith" has multiple meanings, and so I specified what I mean by it. If you want to argue about another kind of faith, then fuck off and make your own thread about it. If I intended to use the word as religious people do, I would have made a thread in the Religion section, not the Philosophy section.

That being said, I think the faith I'm talking about CAN BE a category of religious faith. If you believe in God, just cuz, that's not what I'm talking about. However, if you believe that due to God's assistance, you can run faster than you ever have before, and you do because your psychology is primed, then that's pretty close to what I'm talking about.

[Jesster]

My field of fucks is  barren when it comes to what dictionary definition you are using. Dictionaries talk about common usage. That just means that people have started using the words as synonyms for far too long. I am saying that the closest word to your explanation is trust and faith is just a loose synonym that is more of a subset. I'm confused at your objection to the word trust. The point is that you are not using the word faith the same way that religions do. If you are just going to keep doing this, then I will move on and let you keep dancing in circles. I have better things to do.

And to your second comment there: not relevant.

Look, Jesster, let's end this right now.  I started this thread by defining my terms.  "Faith" has multiple meanings, and so I specified what I mean by it.  If you want to argue about another kind of faith, then fuck off and make your own thread about it.  If I intended to use the word as religious people do, I would have made a thread in the Religion section, not the Philosophy section.

And I replied to criticize your assertion. If you can't take it, you may also fucketh off. 

And now I will resume my daily life. No hard feelings to you. I still like you. I just disagree with the thread's premise.

[brewer]

Substitute "faith" with "training" and or "reflexes" and I'm there.

Muscle memory training/reflex, brain memory training/reflex (rote), religious training/reflex. With enough training actions can be taken without conscious thought. You don't think about taking a step/walking now because you have been training your brain since infancy and it has become more of a reflex than conscious effort. However, if you want to step on a particular random object it requires conscious thought because it is new.

Do you have this "faith" during an activity which is new to you, or not new but not practiced/trained either? I know I don't. I don't think most musicians, athletes or chess players would either.

With religion, if you are taught and then constantly practice thanking the sky guy this becomes a reflex reaction. If you choose to call it faith, I don't care. Shit, I can still repeat the apostles creed but have not consciously said it in years. Is the fact that I can repeat it now faith?

I have a friend whose mother, in early stages of dementia, falls down and immediately starts calling out "help me jesus" repeatedly. She does this anytime she experiences stress. This is simply a reflex reaction of religious memory training because she has been saying this phrase for decades. If you ask her if she expected jesus to actually help she will tell you no.

[Seraphina]

I'm not convinced that faith and achievement are interlinked, as your thread title suggests. But put the lube away, please, I didn't need that graphic of a description of the disagreements that are sure to follow your OP - wow.

The athlete that wins a championship or gold medal does it after many, many hours of deliberate and goal-oriented practice. Same for accomplished musicians or for you while zoning into a difficult piece unencumbered by thoughts or self-doubts or even me as I finally nail a piece I've been practicing forever on my violin.

Believing you can achieve a goal is part of the puzzle but it's not the entire picture.

[bennyboy]

Substitute "faith" with "training" and or "reflexes" and I'm there.

Muscle memory training/reflex, brain memory training/reflex (rote), religious training/reflex. With enough training actions can be taken without conscious thought. You don't think about taking a step/walking now because you have been training your brain since infancy and it has become more of a reflex than conscious effort. However, if you want to step on a particular random object it requires conscious thought because it is new.

Do you have this "faith" during an activity which is new to you, or not new but not practiced/trained either? I know I don't. I don't think most musicians, athletes or chess players would either.

Actually, I'd say that I have faith when I start learning a piece of music, and when it's well-practiced. In the middle stages, the song gets worse before it gets better. I see this as my conscious mind struggling with my unconscious mind.

I really have no control over almost any part of my musical performance at the end, except to enjoy listening, and to have a sense of how I want the music to feel.

As for very new activites-- I don't have any faith that I could do a 720 on a skateboard my first try, no. It is only with regard to things I can never consciously do, like achieve a certain mental state like the "zone," where I'd really talk about faith.