hate the sin, love the sinner

[The Grand Nudger]

If that's true, it's unlikely that there's a single forgiven christian left on earth.

[FatAndFaithless]

But what about 'sins' that aren't a matter of choice or effort on the sinner's part? Like being homosexual or not believing in god?   if you're supposed to love the sinner, why would you punish them?

Most people that I know, would make a distinction, between a same sex attraction, and acting upon it.  It's really no different than an inclination towards those of the opposite sex and sin.   You always have a choice, in whether you embrace or turn away from sin.  

if you're supposed to love the sinner, why would you punish them?
[\quote]
Would you say that any parent, that has ever punished their child, does not love them?
 
I don't understand the connection here in questioning "love the sinner; hate the sin".  Is it being proposed, that if you cannot endorse and love everything that a person does, that you also cannot love them?  Especially under the Christian view, but I think that for everyone, that would mean, that you cannot love anyone; including one's self.

Well, I was referring to the more ridiculous punishments proscribed for certain behavior (mostly stoning), unless of course those rules don't matter any more.  But I'm willing to accept that they don't for the sake of argument.
And yes, parents often need to punish their children to instill better ideas or behaviors, but that's not how I would describe a lot of the stories that we get from people who come out as gay or atheist to their fundamentalist families.  
Or would you say that the Christians who oust/disown their family members for 'sinning' just aren't doing it right?

[abaris]

And yes, parents often need to punish their children to instill better ideas or behaviors, but that's not how I would describe a lot of the stories that we get from people who come out as gay or atheist to their fundamentalist families.  

Do they? My father took me aside and told me a story from his own life when I did something wrong. He had a very dangerous childhood, living through two civil wars and the Hitler years. So there was ample room for finding instances of why children should obey their parents at certain times.

[FatAndFaithless]

And yes, parents often need to punish their children to instill better ideas or behaviors, but that's not how I would describe a lot of the stories that we get from people who come out as gay or atheist to their fundamentalist families.  

Do they? My father took me aside and told me a story from his own life when I did something wrong. He had a very dangerous childhood, living through two civil wars and the Hitler years. So there was ample room for finding instances of why children should obey their parents at certain times.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "often," but not every problem can be solved by a story.  Hell, I'd consider taking away their phone for a week or putting them in timeout as 'punishment,' it's just nothing like the punishment that the Bible recommends for certain sins, or that we hear about from fundamentalists.

[abaris]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "often," but not every problem can be solved by a story.  Hell, I'd consider taking away their phone for a week or putting them in timeout as 'punishment,' it's just nothing like the punishment that the Bible recommends for certain sins, or that we hear about from fundamentalists.

The stories he told me stick to this day, well more than 40 years after. I'm not sure if taking a toy away, we didn't have phones back then, would have had the same effect.

[FatAndFaithless]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "often," but not every problem can be solved by a story.  Hell, I'd consider taking away their phone for a week or putting them in timeout as 'punishment,' it's just nothing like the punishment that the Bible recommends for certain sins, or that we hear about from fundamentalists.

The stories he told me stick to this day, well more than 40 years after. I'm not sure if taking a toy away, we didn't have phones back then, would have had the same effect.

Yeah..and that's fine...I wasn't at all comparing your particular, personal stories to a timeout, it's just that those are some examples of punishment that a loving parent might need to use once in a while.  My point was a response to RR saying that loving parents sometimes do need to punish their children - and that's true, but the punishments we see coming from 'loving' fundamentalist families, and the punishments advocated in the bible are vastly different, and certainly don't seem to suggest that they 'love the sinner.'

[pgrimes15]

how does it work? or doesn't...

A good example is loving someone with an addiction.

You can love the individual and try and help them step through recovery, and still hate the sin.

This separation of the individual from the sin, can be applied to any sin.

Is delusion a kind of addiction?
Hate the delusion, love the deluded.

[Cato]

The rationalizations given in support of the position are vomit inducing. The whole idea is nothing more than believers placing blame for their cuntish behavior on their dead jewish zombie friend and his dad. It's a cop out, pure and simple.

[Jesster]

Well duh. You stone them to death to show them how much you love them.

It seems you are confusing OT Judaism with NT Christianity. As a Christian we are commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven, otherwise our forgiveness will be null and void.

Oh sure, there's Christians who ignore half their own book as well. I'm perfectly fine with that... except I'm sure you also think I deserve eternal torture. I can feel the love radiating out from you. I'm sure your voting record also involves your love of "sexual deviants" like myself.

[RoadRunner79]

Most people that I know, would make a distinction, between a same sex attraction, and acting upon it.  It's really no different than an inclination towards those of the opposite sex and sin.   You always have a choice, in whether you embrace or turn away from sin.  

Well, I was referring to the more ridiculous punishments proscribed for certain behavior (mostly stoning), unless of course those rules don't matter any more.  But I'm willing to accept that they don't for the sake of argument.
And yes, parents often need to punish their children to instill better ideas or behaviors, but that's not how I would describe a lot of the stories that we get from people who come out as gay or atheist to their fundamentalist families.  
Or would you say that the Christians who oust/disown their family members for 'sinning' just aren't doing it right?

I see, that is a little different subject.  It also requires some understanding of the purpose of the Old Covenant and law, and the theocracy of Israel.  I am not as familiar with some of the Jewish traditions, as I would like to be; but I have always heard that these where a maximum punishments and where rare.

This site: http://tcapologetics.org/old-testament-l...unishment/ explains that there where strict requirements in order to convict someone of capital punishment.  Two witnesses needed to be brought forth who where credible, and not family.  It also states that the Israelites looked favorably on repentance.

The Mishna declared: “The Sanhedrin that executes one person in seven years is called “murderous.” Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah extended this to one execution in seventy years. That does not mean the punishment was meaningless, or the crime irrelevant. The punishment clearly attached a level of severity that God considered appropriate to the crime. But in every case but one, there was another way the penalty could be paid.

In Towards an Old Testament Ethic, Walter Kaiser summarizes in this fashion:

   “There were some sixteen crimes that called for the death penalty in the OT…. Only in the case of premeditated murder did the text say that the officials in Israel were forbidden to take a “ransom” or a “substitute.” This has widely been interpreted to imply that in all the other fifteen cases the judges could commute the crimes deserving of capital punishment by designating a “ransom” or “substitute.”

I don't really endorse shunning, or think it should be a last resort.  I can somewhat understand where those that do are coming from, but also find that they are often selective, and unnecessarily harsh in execution.