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Contingency
#11
RE: Contingency
What you may notice is some people assuming sceptics take the position that our reality is not contingent/designed, because we don't accept unevidenced claims that it is.

No. It's perfectly reasonable to have no beliefs either way, or informally, "We don't know". This is not being closed minded. It's the opposite of that.
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#12
RE: Contingency
"I don't know" is the only place one can start from, to know. Assumed truths generally aren't investigated nor developed. But good ideas are.

My idea (not a new one) is that the space of the universe is contingent upon a preexisting substance. The substance has always existed. What began was the opening of our vacuum bubble of voided space-time.

We can extrapolate backwards forever and reach reasonable approximations with the data we can collect from within the bubble. But the universe unfolded in the forwards direction and we are still putting together that story.
"Leave it to me to find a way to be,
Consider me a satellite forever orbiting,
I knew the rules but the rules did not know me, guaranteed." - Eddie Vedder
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#13
RE: Contingency
(September 1, 2016 at 2:34 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: "I don't know" is the only place one can start from, to know.
You think?  From, nothing nothing comes, though.,.I thought?  Wink

We attempt to explain the unknown by reference to the known.  To do otherwise is simply to assert and reassert.

Quote:My idea (not a new one) is that the space of the universe is contingent upon a preexisting substance. The substance has always existed. What began was the opening of our vacuum bubble of voided space-time.
Unfortunately you can't get a -rational- idea from an infinite regress, or any reference to non-terminus (reason requires terminus to generate conclusions).  Doesn't mean it isn't true, just that we don't have any means of determining it to be so.  What was the pre-existing substance contigent upon..if it wasn't contigent upon something than there's no reason to think the the universe as it is was either..or more accurately, to do so would be an inconsistent application of reason.  

Quote:We can extrapolate backwards forever and reach reasonable approximations with the data we can collect from within the bubble. But the universe unfolded in the forwards direction and we are still putting together that story.
Not currently, we can't.  All of the data within the bubble appears to be limited, fundamentally, to "post bubble" conditions.  Without knowledge of what the conditions were before this there's no reason to assume that the data post-bubble is meaningful with regards to anything pre-bubble, or even that reason holds pre-bubble....for that matter....and all of this assumes that there was a pre-bubble..that there was time-before-time.  It's a black box, at present.
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#14
RE: Contingency
(September 1, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You think?  From, nothing nothing comes, though.,.I thought?  Wink

We attempt to explain the unknown by reference to the known.  To do otherwise is simply to assert and reassert.  

Unfortunately you can't get a -rational- idea from an infinite regress, or any reference to non-terminus (reason requires terminus to generate conclusions).  Doesn't mean it isn't true, just that we don't have any means of determining it to be so.  What was the pre-existing substance contigent upon..if it wasn't contigent upon something than there's no reason to think the the universe as it is was either..or more accurately, to do so would be an inconsistent application of reason.  

Not currently, we can't.  All of the data within the bubble appears to be limited, fundamentally, to "post bubble" conditions.  Without knowledge of what the conditions were before this there's no reason to assume that the data post-bubble is meaningful with regards to anything pre-bubble, or even that reason holds pre-bubble....for that matter....and all of this assumes that there was a pre-bubble..that there was time-before-time.

 It's a black box, at present.
Depends on what you make of it. Tongue

I do too.

It's not an infinite regress, it's an eternal state. Non-relative time (no space of movement for orbit of anything). The prexisting substance is the necessary being.

Really? I thought the general scientific consensus was that all the forces, fields, and substance that we enjoy as individual operations/forms were inherent in the unified state (singularity) prior to inflation. They did not appear willy nilly.

Well then you are going to have to think outside the box...in fact you'll probably have to dance on a tesseract. Wink
"Leave it to me to find a way to be,
Consider me a satellite forever orbiting,
I knew the rules but the rules did not know me, guaranteed." - Eddie Vedder
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#15
RE: Contingency
(September 1, 2016 at 2:58 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: Depends on what you make of it. Tongue
No, it doesn't.  Look, I'm not telling you that you can;t make whatever it is you've made.  Simply telling you that whatever it is you've made isn't rational, probably something like a rationalization instead.   

Quote:It's not an infinite regress, it's an eternal state. Non-relative time (no space of movement for orbit of anything). The prexisting substance is the necessary being.
No terminus, no ability of reason to generate a conclusion.  For a necessarry being to exist, it must exist within something..snce we're trying to explain the origin of that something..a necessary being is of no use.  If you do wish to refer to the concept, then perhaps the singularity itself was a necessary being..and as such there's no sense in talking about it's contigencies. See...inconsistent applications of reason. Once you propose that there is something that has no contigency, the best candidates for that something are..firstly, things that we know to exist.

Quote:Really? I thought the general scientific consensus was that all the forces, fields, and substance that we enjoy as individual operations/forms were inherent in the unified state (singularity) prior to inflation.  They did not appear willy nilly.
I'm not sure what you think, in my comments, this refers to.  

Quote:Well then you are going to have to think outside the box...in fact you'll probably have to dance on a tesseract. Wink
You can't..at least not rationally.  Such are the limits of reason. You can use whatever else it is you have to come up with whatever you've made...but I'd probably just pass on that, personally.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#16
RE: Contingency
(August 31, 2016 at 9:13 pm)Panatheist Wrote: A claim was made to me that the cosmos is contingent and this is why physicists are coming up with theories of prior universes "before" the Big Bang, etc.

Do most physicists actually say our cosmos is depebdent on anything for its existence?

I would hope that most physicists (or rather, the specialists in the relevant sub-fields) would be so wise as to withhold judgment on this issue because at this point, noone can know. The speculations about how one can trace back our time beyond the "big bang" to a previous state are perfectly valid directions of research, but at this point that's mere speculation. Any good cosmologist should explore their favorite hypothesis while still acknowledging that it isn't empirically supported yet.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#17
RE: Contingency
wrong thread...
"Leave it to me to find a way to be,
Consider me a satellite forever orbiting,
I knew the rules but the rules did not know me, guaranteed." - Eddie Vedder
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