Symbolic Death and My Second Crisis of Faith

[InquiringMind]

Don't think for a second that above a certain level of church admins, there is even 1 "True Believer".  There is no way the church could function with such people running the show.

If you want to continue this discussion, it probably needs another thread, because I was hoping to talk about my existential crisis in this thread.  But to continue this discussion, which we should do in another thread, I would ask the analogous question of Catholicism: Are the Pope and the Cardinals True Believers in Catholicism?  You might be able to make an argument that no top-level leader of any religion is a True Believer, but then you'd run into problems with people who obviously are.

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I wish I had an answer, but I don't.  To me, your searching for a relationship and a career is part of the grappling with the need for meaning.  You are putting activities that are meaningful to you in your life.  I think meaning is a moment to moment affair.  I think hoping to find permanent meaning will just leave you grasping.  Do things, first of all, then look for meaning second.

I have my own struggles of meaning to contend with.  I'm 53 years old, and I've been suffering depression for the last three years.  I know that if I could get involved in something, I'd find the time passing more easily.  But I can't seem to get interested in anything.  So I see one week passing, the same as the week before, which was the same as the week before that.  I'm not bothered by a lack of meaning per se, so much as the monotony and boredom is getting to me.  Is that simply a different kind of crisis of meaning?  Perhaps.

Well, hmmmm.......back when I was a child, I didn't worry about meaning.  I did things because they were intrinsically rewarding.  I read the encyclopedia because I enjoyed it.  I read science books because they were fascinating.  I played sports because I liked the physical sensations.  

That all changed when I hit puberty.  Now, suddenly, after puberty, people were watching.  Suddenly it mattered if I missed a shot in basketball or if I made it.  Suddenly it mattered if I had cool friends or dorky friends.  Suddenly it mattered if my answers in class were right or wrong.  Suddenly my actions were meaningful in a way they had not been when I was a child.  My actions had social meaning that had not previously existed.  

I loved childhood because I did things that were intrinsically rewarding and I didn't care what other people thought.  I didn't worry about the meaning of life and I didn't worry about how my skill set compared to other people's skill sets.  I also didn't worry about death.  Childhood is immortality.  I didn't have any real concept of death as a child, and the world seemed eternal.  As a child, I lived in an eternal "now."  There was no death.  

But puberty brought two new facets into life for me: sex and death.  I have never recovered from that change.  

Since I have been unable to find meaning in an activity that I know to be ultimately meaningless, I'm trying something new.  Or something old, rather.  If I were able to accept death and not be afraid of it, then perhaps I could return to that childhood state of being able to do things for the intrinsic reward rather than for the hope of winning the approval and adoration of others, which is a hope of symbolic immortality.  Then, perhaps, the burden of meaning would be gone.  In my estimation, we only seek meaning because we lack what we really want, which is immortality.  Meaning is ersatz immortality, but doesn't really satisfy our yearning to live forever.  Since we can't live forever, we at least want to feel that our finite lives meant something.  

It's worked a little bit, actually.  When I was a child, I didn't worry about immortality because, insofar as I could tell, I already had it.  As an adult, perhaps I could stop worrying about immortality by facing the fear of death, and perhaps rejecting immortality (do I really want to live forever?  Not really.)  I've had a little bit of luck with this in working out some of my problems.

[Arkilogue]

I think consciousness is too hard on the body, we generate all kinds of stress hormones just sitting there thinking and feeling and the body needs to rest from it 8 hours out of 24. Stay awake too long and you'll die. I doubt it could handle immortality unless you've developed an extremely well disciplined mind/heart....perhaps that's what reincarnation is for.

[chimp3]

Do you find yourself troubled by the meaninglessness of your existence?  Are you looking for something to "make sense" of a world that doesn't seem to make sense?  What would it mean to you if the world doesn't make sense.

......

To me it sounds like you're grappling with themes of meaning and nihilism; would that be accurate?

Maybe.....If we're talking about nihilism, I'm hoping to have a discussion that is more profound than "Life sucks.  Then you die."  

Maybe I am talking about questions of meaning.  The problem is that I know that there isn't any intrinsic meaning to life, and I've often found myself going in circles when I can't find any meaning behind what I'm trying to do.  I understand that in logotherapy, created by Victor Frankl, we are responsible for finding our own meanings in life.  I haven't been able to get there yet.  

But what I can do now it to discuss a little about how I used to find meaning, and how that has fallen apart for me.  

Like most ambitious people, I accepted the WEIRD worldview that life is given meaning by achieving "success."  Some say that success is defined by the individual, but in WEIRD society, I don't think that's true.  I think that the WEIRD society has a fairly narrow, prescribed definition of success, which is a combination of these: having a job that is well-paying, satisfying, and fulfilling; being married with children; living in a nice house and having other important material possessions; having good physical health and being in good physical shape; making some kind of contribution to your chosen field; and feeling generally happy and satisfied with your life.  If you do these things, then society considers you to be "successful."  

An alternate route to success in WEIRD society is the route of the artist, which is similar to the route a scientist can take.  The artist achieves success by creating a world-changing piece of art (or science) and thus earns their symbolic immortality.  Artists don't have to be married with children or have good physical or mental health, as long as their works are works of true genius.  

I have previously tried to find meaning through both of these, and have failed.  I may indeed find a job that is well-paying, satisfying, and fulfilling.  But I've been a failure in romantic relationships.  I'm 37, and I've never had a relationship that lasted for more than a few months.  I consider myself to be a reasonably attractive and interesting man, but my relationships always fall apart for reasons that seem perpetually elusive.  (I'm not looking for "dating advice" or "relationship advice" here, as people sometimes want to give.  I'm hoping to discuss this from an existential point of view.)  

Since WEIRD society considers relationship success to be a central part of life success, and since "success" is the purpose of life in the WEIRD worldview, I've felt life become more meaningless as I have been unable to find useful answers for my romantic problems.  

It's been somewhat similar with being a scientist.  I'm a talented person, but I'm not Feynman or Einstein.  So even if I do have a decent career in science or engineering, it's very unlikely that I'm going to become a household name, and at best, my contributions to science will likely be small.  The best I can hope for is a few publications, and perhaps a little bit of name recognition in whatever narrow field I chose.  I'm certainly not "destined for greatness" as I had previously hoped.   

And so yeah, without a romantic relationship and an illustrious career, I find myself feeling the burden of the meaninglessness of my life. I like the idea that career and relationships form a symbolic form of immortality, and that once these illusions are shattered, the fear of death sets in, and life feels meaningless.  

What should I do?

You seem like a person who appreciates meaningful living. Does that not mean you feel a twinge of meaning in your own life? Some people just don't give a shit. You seem like some one who cares deeply.

[InquiringMind]

Well, it looks like I have some useful answers from another thread. I inherited a worldview from the society I grew up in. This society taught me to value "success." But now I get to decide what is valuable and I get to decide what is significant. This isn't about redefining "success." No, that's still the old worldview. It's not about redefining "success" from "money and status" to "friendship and generosity." It's about whether or not I even value success as a concept. Why is "success" so important? Why is it valuable and why do I want it? This may be an interesting journey.