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Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
#31
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 11:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(October 16, 2016 at 11:12 am)mh.brewer Wrote: That all seems like normal human behavior to me. I find nothing amoral in these thoughts. Just another reason why I don't understand christian sin. 

If you tied these thoughts to an action, that would be another story.

Well in Christianity, it isn't just about actions. It's about what type of heart we have. Imagine a person who hates gay people for the mere fact that they are gay. This person likes to fantasize about hurting them and wishes they would all just be executed. While this person is too cowardly or whatever to actually go out and act on his desires by hurting a gay person, does the fact that he feels this way about them play a role in the type of person he is? If the answer is yes, then hopefully you can understand why we believe "thoughts" can be immoral without actions. Because it all comes down to the type of person someone is, at their core.

I also would like to add that I agree, that dehumanizing people sometimes is "normal" human behavior. But the way I see it, just because something is normal behavior, doesn't mean it's moral behavior. Likewise, when someone is in a super bad mood and going through a rough time in life, it's "normal" to lash out at a completely innocent bystander just because they happen to be close to you. But does that make it moral to do so? I would say not.

Re first paragraph: The individual you describe has taken an action, although it is mental and not physical. Sounds like we're in agreement but I'll not assume.

Re second paragraph: It looks like you just brought up the subjectivity of morals/morality. Does the lashing out become a sin? Or does it remain a normal human behavior brought on by stress, maybe uncalled for, but not a sin? Maybe that depends on the degree of the action and becomes subjective. If I'm angry with a person and yell at them to shut up is that a sin or amoral? It's lashing out.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#32
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 12:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(October 17, 2016 at 11:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well in Christianity, it isn't just about actions. It's about what type of heart we have. Imagine a person who hates gay people for the mere fact that they are gay. This person likes to fantasize about hurting them and wishes they would all just be executed. While this person is too cowardly or whatever to actually go out and act on his desires by hurting a gay person, does the fact that he feels this way about them play a role in the type of person he is? If the answer is yes, then hopefully you can understand why we believe "thoughts" can be immoral without actions. Because it all comes down to the type of person someone is, at their core.

I also would like to add that I agree, that dehumanizing people sometimes is "normal" human behavior. But the way I see it, just because something is normal behavior, doesn't mean it's moral behavior. Likewise, when someone is in a super bad mood and going through a rough time in life, it's "normal" to lash out at a completely innocent bystander just because they happen to be close to you. But does that make it moral to do so? I would say not.

Re first paragraph: The individual you describe has taken an action, although it is mental and not physical. Sounds like we're in agreement but I'll not assume.

Re second paragraph: It looks like you just brought up the subjectivity of morals/morality. Does the lashing out become a sin? Or does it remain a normal human behavior brought on by stress, maybe uncalled for, but not a sin? Maybe that depends on the degree of the action and becomes subjective. If I'm angry with a person and yell at them to shut up is that a sin or amoral? It's lashing out.

Re first paragraph: 

Yes, if we consider that something done mentally can be an "action," then I agree that making a conscious decision to fantasize about killing someone is a mental action. But I would also say that making the conscious decision to dehumanize another person is as well. My point is that they both say something about the type of people we are without any sort of outward act. 

I feel like some people criticize Christianity for "thought crime". But if you could read someone's mind, would you also not use that information to make a judgement on the type of people that they are? 

It is also important to differentiate between a thought that pops into your head, and then you choosing to dwell on it. If I see someone who is severely unattractive and the thought "wow, that person is ugly" pops into my head, that alone is not what we would consider immoral. Because you can't help thoughts that pop into your mind. The sin would come when I choose to dwell on it, thus taking the humanity out of the person in my mind and just viewing them as this thing to be scrutinized, perhaps using them to make myself feel better about the way I look. 

...Getting back to the original subject of sexual lust in our minds, dehumanizing someone sexually would work the same way. Thinking "wow she's super sexy" about a woman who just walked into the room isn't a sin. Feeling sexual attraction for her is not a sin. The sin comes when you make the conscious choice to dwell on it. Perhaps undressing her in your mind and fantasizing about having sex with her so that you can get off to it later. You don't know if she wants to be pictured naked or if she wants to be fantasized about having sex with. But you don't care. At that point you have turned her into a sexual object in your mind, using her for your own gratification, even though she is a full human being and there is so much more to her than that.    

Re second paragraph:

Though I do believe  morality is objective, I am not trying to bring that into the discussion. I'm just trying to explain how I believe something can be immoral while still being normal behavior. Or why normal behavior doesn't necessarily make the behavior moral. I'm sure you think it's wrong to yell at someone who has nothing to do with the reason you are upset/stressed. Wouldn't you say that's both normal, though not a moral thing to do? Both at the same time?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#33
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
The dirtiest word ever: god.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#34
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 1:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It is also important to differentiate between a thought that pops into your head, and then you choosing to dwell on it.

That is spot on. The first look is free, the second is sin.
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#35
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 1:29 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: The dirtiest word ever: god.

Wrong! The most vile word ever is nigger.
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#36
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 1:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Re first paragraph: 

Yes, if we consider that something done mentally can be an "action," then I agree that making a conscious decision to fantasize about killing someone is a mental action. But I would also say that making the conscious decision to dehumanize another person is as well. My point is that they both say something about the type of people we are without any sort of outward act. 

I feel like some people criticize Christianity for "thought crime". But if you could read someone's mind, would you also not use that information to make a judgement on the type of people that they are? 

It is also important to differentiate between a thought that pops into your head, and then you choosing to dwell on it. If I see someone who is severely unattractive and the thought "wow, that person is ugly" pops into my head, that alone is not what we would consider immoral. Because you can't help thoughts that pop into your mind. The sin would come when I choose to dwell on it, thus taking the humanity out of the person in my mind and just viewing them as this thing to be scrutinized, perhaps using them to make myself feel better about the way I look. 

...Getting back to the original subject of sexual lust in our minds, dehumanizing someone sexually would work the same way. Thinking "wow she's super sexy" about a woman who just walked into the room isn't a sin. Feeling sexual attraction for her is not a sin. The sin comes when you make the conscious choice to dwell on it. Perhaps undressing her in your mind and fantasizing about having sex with her so that you can get off to it later. You don't know if she wants to be pictured naked or if she wants to be fantasized about having sex with. But you don't care. At that point you have turned her into a sexual object in your mind, using her for your own gratification, even though she is a full human being and there is so much more to her than that.    

Re second paragraph:

Though I do believe  morality is objective, I am not trying to bring that into the discussion. I'm just trying to explain how I believe something can be immoral while still being normal behavior. Or why normal behavior doesn't necessarily make the behavior moral. I'm sure you think it's wrong to yell at someone who has nothing to do with the reason you are upset/stressed. Wouldn't you say that's both normal, though not a moral thing to do? Both at the same time?

Re First: Sorry, can't see sexual fantasy as amoral. Not all fantasy is dehumanizing. If you tell them about the fantasy and how you use it, may be then.  

Re Second: Yelling, while it may not be socially correct and something I may need to apologize for, again not amoral. Just a poor way of communicating. 

So is anything that creates a regret an amoral act/thought?
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#37
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
Chad... I see your religious views say "researching RCIA". Are you looking into becoming a Catholic?? If so, let me suggest "Catholic Answers Forums" for you to join.

Like all forums, there are the super extreme people on there, but it's generally an excellent place to ask questions, discuss, and learn. Most people there are really nice.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#38
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 4:18 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Re First: Sorry, can't see sexual fantasy as amoral. Not all fantasy is dehumanizing. If you tell them about the fantasy and how you use it, may be then.
  

I figured you wouldn't, and that's because of our different views regarding human sexuality. I was merely trying to explain why/how what goes on inside our minds without outward actions can still play a role in the type of person we are and can still be considered immoral.

Quote:Re Second: Yelling, while it may not be socially correct and something I may need to apologize for, again not amoral. Just a poor way of communicating. 

So is anything that creates a regret an amoral act/thought?

I would disagree. I think yelling at an innocent bystander who has nothing to do with whatever problem you're dealing with is wrong. I used to come home in tears when my grumpy manager was having a bad day and took it out on me by going off on me for no reason whatsoever. But again, the main point I was making was simply that you can think a normal human behavior can still be immoral behavior. Would you argue then that under no circumstances at all would you ever think normal behavior can ever be immoral?

To answer your question, no. People can do all kinds of immoral things without feeling regret for having done them. I'm sure ISIS falls into this category. And likewise, someone can feel incredibly guilty for something that was not at all their fault. If I said anything that suggested otherwise, then that's my bad. But anyway, this is a question about objective/subjective morality. Which I'm not sure fits into the point I'm making.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#39
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 4:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Chad... I see your religious views say "researching RCIA". Are you looking into becoming a Catholic?? If so, let me suggest "Catholic Answers Forums" for you to join.

Yes, I've been thinking about it for a long time, since coming back from Rome last December. I used to listen to the Catholic Answers radio show for a while. They actually kinda turned me off. Catholic culture is still pretty intimidating for me.
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#40
RE: Christian Self-censorship of Dirty Words
(October 17, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(October 17, 2016 at 4:18 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Re First: Sorry, can't see sexual fantasy as amoral. Not all fantasy is dehumanizing. If you tell them about the fantasy and how you use it, may be then.
  

I figured you wouldn't, and that's because of our different views regarding human sexuality. I was merely trying to explain why/how what goes on inside our minds without outward actions can still play a role in the type of person we are and can still be considered immoral.

Quote:Re Second: Yelling, while it may not be socially correct and something I may need to apologize for, again not amoral. Just a poor way of communicating. 

So is anything that creates a regret an amoral act/thought?

I would disagree. I think yelling at an innocent bystander who has nothing to do with whatever problem you're dealing with is wrong. I used to come home in tears when my grumpy manager was having a bad day and took it out on me by going off on me for no reason whatsoever. But again, the main point I was making was simply that you can think a normal human behavior can still be immoral behavior. Would you argue then that under no circumstances at all would you ever think normal behavior can ever be immoral?  

To answer your question, no. People can do all kinds of immoral things without feeling regret for having done them. I'm sure ISIS falls into this category. And likewise, someone can feel incredibly guilty for something that was not at all their fault. If I said anything that suggested otherwise, then that's my bad. But anyway, this is a question about objective/subjective morality. Which I'm not sure fits into the point I'm making.

bold mine

I'm hard pressed to think of one.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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