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God sees - strongest argument for God.....
#51
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 16, 2016 at 12:14 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Ever consider that YOU might learn something from someone of another faith?

No.

There is a reason that faith is faith.

Learn something already.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#52
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
What a mind numbing mess of an OP. I just read that whole thing.
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#53
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The strongest argument that is repeated in many verses in Quran is that God witnesses all things and as such no doubt he Exists.

Now this may seem circular, but is it really?

It maybe said we need to know God exists to know he sees all things.  How else would we know this attribute of God without knowing God himself and his attributes?

Well, I think if we break it down:

1. We require perception for our identity
2. We have an objective identity.
3. Our perception is not what defines our objective identity.
4. All spiritual identities need an accurate perception.
5. The ultimate possible perception would be more accurate than all other perceptions.
6. The ultimate possible perception is thus what gives us an objective identity.

As for 1, it can be argued our thoughts, our deeds, they all require a state of conscious. Our concept of ourselves also requires a perception. But are we that which defines the level of our deeds, the quality of our actions, or is there a judgement beyond ours that defines our deeds? Makes us inherit our deeds.

The Quran often emphasizes who better as a judge than God?

 I also argue it's obvious we are not just a subjective concept that has no reality. We know this or we wouldn't even estimate ourselves or take some sort of guess of who others are.

It is also obvious that the real deed and our real hidden secret deep within us behind our actions has to be seen through an absolute accurate perspective. And we know through our nature that as far as this goes, we human deep inside know perfect perception requires absolute knowledge of what it means to be good. For example, suppose a person is higher then all of us in good deeds. How will our lower perception judge what he is. All possible levels of goodness thus be known and seen by this perceiver.

We constantly act as if there is a judge who makes us inherit our actions. We just don't focus to realize it. But this perception is something we cannot not assume. Even Atheist subconsciously are acting on this perceiver existing and making them inherit their deeds and other people inheriting their deeds.

In my belief, this is probably the strongest most potent argument for God. Because you have to deny yourself having an objective existence or say that it somehow it exists independent of your perception but also independent of any perception, both which are equally illogical.

Thank you for your time, with peace and blessings!

MK, I will say this in the most honest way: bullshit.

Other than that, it saddens me to see a good guy falling for such infantility. It is what it is and you must have motive to consider such a mindfuck anywhere near reality.

Best wishes. Its all I have to say. Mabe one day you will find that no one cares what you believe, and you have no business telling others WHAT to believe.

How is your marriage going? Big Grin

http://youtu.be/zxKJ-REbUlI
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#54
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The strongest argument that is repeated in many verses in Quran
Given that this is a book with talking birds and ants, I wouldn't try to persuade others by setting the bar so low for yourself.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: is that God witnesses all things and as such no doubt he Exists.
And yet, I, and millions of others like me, have our doubts.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Now this may seem circular, but is it really?
Oh. That was an argument. Well, yes, it is.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It maybe said we need to know God exists to know he sees all things.
What's more, we need to know that a God who sees all things exists to know that both a God exists and that he sees all things.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:  How else would we know this attribute of God without knowing God himself and his attributes?
Precisely!
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well, I think if we break it down:

1. We require perception for our identity
2. We have an objective identity.
What's an objective identity? How is that different from a subjective identity?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 3. Our perception is not what defines our objective identity.
Is an objective identity like a Platonic form?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 4. All spiritual identities need an accurate perception.
A spiritual identity? Is this different from an objective or a subjective identity?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 5. The ultimate possible perception would be more accurate than all other perceptions.
How is that? It is ultimate because it perceives more things? As they are in themselves? What is an "ultimate possible perception" and it is accurate with reference to what exactly?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 6. The ultimate possible perception is thus what gives us an objective identity.
Lol what?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: As for 1, it can be argued our thoughts, our deeds, they all require a state of conscious.
Thoughts, yes, deeds, probably not.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Our concept of ourselves also requires a perception. But are we that which defines the level of our deeds, the quality of our actions, or is there a judgement beyond ours that defines our deeds? Makes us inherit our deeds.
Yes, we define the quality of our actions per the criteria prescribed by the nature of the real world. There is no "judgement beyond ours" besides the mechanisms of physics which are the result of statistical laws, i.e. probability or chance.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The Quran often emphasizes who better as a judge than God?
Right. The God who uses birds and ants to talk to people and burns skeptics in hell, replacing their flesh when the flames get too hot and melt the poor bastards, well, because they thought Mohammad and his talking birds were full of shit. Who better as a judge though, of course!
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:  I also argue it's obvious we are not just a subjective concept that has no reality.
Why would a "subjective concept" have "no reality"? It would have reality... as a subjective concept.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: We know this or we wouldn't even estimate ourselves or take some sort of guess of who others are.
Did you mean "solipsism" by "subjective concept"? Sure, I agree, there is an external reality. So... therefore... God? Was that the argument?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It is also obvious that the real deed and our real hidden secret deep within us behind our actions has to be seen through an absolute accurate perspective.
What is the "real hidden secret deep within us"? Do you mean mental states which are inherently subjective? Why does this have to be "seen" through anything but the perception that is inherent to such subjective, mental states?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And we know through our nature that as far as this goes, we human deep inside know perfect perception requires absolute knowledge of what it means to be good.
What the fuck are you talking about?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: For example, suppose a person is higher then all of us in good deeds. How will our lower perception judge what he is. All possible levels of goodness thus be known and seen by this perceiver.
Uh, yeah. "This perceiver" is call "the intellect."
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: We constantly act as if there is a judge who makes us inherit our actions. We just don't focus to realize it. [quote='MysticKnight' pid='1417192' dateline='1476550171']Sure we do. It is ourselves.. That is who realizes it. [quote='MysticKnight' pid='1417192' dateline='1476550171'] But this perception is something we cannot not assume.
Depends on what you mean by "assume." I assume I'm conscious right now. Am I not entitled to that?
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Even Atheist subconsciously are acting on this perceiver existing and making them inherit their deeds and other people inheriting their deeds.
Right. I am. See Descartes' cogito
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In my belief, this is probably the strongest most potent argument for God.
Hence, why I am an atheist, and don't believe in your God, or his prophet for that matter.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Because you have to deny yourself having an objective existence or say that it somehow it exists independent of your perception but also independent of any perception, both which are equally illogical.
Except, you don't. My perception doesn't exist independent of my perception, but my existence is also more than my perception, because I am also a body, which is part of a world that is external to my perception.
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Thank you for your time, with peace and blessings!
You're welcome. Hope you find clarification for your thoughts.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#55
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 2:22 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: Nothing is wrong with his faith. Something is wrong with your definition and usage.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Hebrews 11:1 is one of those sentences that appears deep until you actually parse the language. Once you do, you are left holding belly botton lint and moonshine. Faith is belief in god or a religion or a strong trust in something. Faith without underlying reason is only evidence of the naivete, imagination, or credulity of the faithful.

Proverbs 25:2 is flimflam. The invisible and the nonexistent have much in common. There's no glory in it either.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#56
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The strongest argument that is repeated in many verses in Quran is that God witnesses all things and as such no doubt he Exists.

Now this may seem circular, but is it really?

1. We require perception for our identity
2. We have an objective identity.
3. Our perception is not what defines our objective identity.
4. All spiritual identities need an accurate perception.
5. The ultimate possible perception would be more accurate than all other perceptions.
6. The ultimate possible perception is thus what gives us an objective identity.

We have identity regardless of our perception.

Well, truly God exists, for there is something.

We cannot argue from God's revelation for His existence. On the contrary, we can only have faith in His revelation after we have proven His existence via human reason, and that can only be done from reasoning from His effects.
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#57
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 1. We require perception for our identity
2. We have an objective identity.
3. Our perception is not what defines our objective identity.
4. All spiritual identities need an accurate perception.
5. The ultimate possible perception would be more accurate than all other perceptions.
6. The ultimate possible perception is thus what gives us an objective identity.


Corrected for you.

You can just about argue points 1-3 depending on how you define your terms, e.g. what is an objective identity? And you are on shaky ground with 3.

But point 4 onwards is mere fantasy and word salad. What is a spiritual identity? What is spiritual other than a belief in something supernatural (i.e. a belief in something that does not exist in nature or reality).
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#58
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: tl;dr, Aquinas' fourth way Argument from Gradiation of Being

Your argument basically boils down to the assertion that because we have certain qualities there must be a being with the perfect version of said qualities. And that being must be god because, well we don't know why except for the fact that you (and before you Aquinas) are starting with the assumption that god exists therefore the argument must lead back to him (there's your circular reasoning).

There are two problems with the fourth way, 1) you're using subjective values to describe the qualities you talk about (hell, you're calling the obviously subjective conception of identity* objective so starting from a false premise as LFC pointed out), the idea of gradiations of perfection is a human idea and humans are subjectivity machines. What is "good", "better" and "best" for you could be radically different than what those are for me, e.g you could consider in relation to the Civilization series of games that the order of goodness goes 6>5>3>2>4>1, with six being the perfect iteration, whereas for me it is 4>3>2>6>5>1, with four being the best and one at the back because it is unplayable now given the improvements in 3 and especially 4.
2) Your premise six is a false assumption. Even if you could objectively prove that there is a "ultimate possible perception" you cannot say whether that perception is the creator or genesis of all other perceptions. In fact in most cases the opposite is true, e.g. the eye has developed and improved over the course of evolution from simple patches of skin sensitive to sunlight, through pinhole like eye, through the human eye, to eyes like those of certain species of shrimp or of eagles or of squid (all much better than human eyes), and with probably more improvements not yet emergent. Best does not create less good in most cases, less good creates better.


*Identity is a function of the self-referential nature of the brain. Your identity is essentially what you see yourself as, and as you will always see yourself in the light you want to see yourself as, it is going to be heavily subjective in nature.
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#59
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(October 15, 2016 at 10:23 pm)Soldat Du Christ Wrote: Official islam deconversion kit:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Campbell/s2c1.html

MK, find out what the quron has to say about the bible!

soldat du fairy story, do us a favour find out what reality has to say about those two crocks of shit.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

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#60
RE: God sees - strongest argument for God.....
(November 3, 2016 at 4:06 am)theologian Wrote: We cannot argue from God's revelation for His existence. On the contrary, we can only have faith in His revelation after we have proven His existence via human reason, and that can only be done from reasoning from His effects.

I doubt that very much, faith does not seem to depend on reason...and often enough it positively defies it.  Reasoning from '"His effects" is pointless, you must first imagine that some effect is "His effect" in order to conclude that "He is" -from- that effect....whatever it is you think they are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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