What do you believe in that hasnt been proven to exist?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I didn't say 'real world', I said 'external world'.  

I'm not sure to which doubts you're referring.  Can you be more specific?

Boru

What do you mean by external, then ? External to what, the neurons ?

External to my own consciousness. Try an example. I have a lawnmower in my garden shed. If there is no external world, then the lawnmower will cease to exist when my consciousness ceases to exist. If there is an external world, the lawnmower will still be there when my consciousness isn't. I have no 'reasonable belief' that the former situation is the correct one, so I therefore believe - without proof - that there exists an external world apart from my consciousness.

To put it another (and perhaps more personal) way, the AF member I know as 'Excited Penguin' exists whether I live another 50 years or I die in the next ten seconds. If there were no external world, you would cease to exist when I do.

Boru

[Thumpalumpacus]

I believe JFK was killed by a conspiracy.

I can subscribe to that. But not the phone number cabalistic type Jim Garrison believed in, thereby venturing deep into Alex Jones territory before he even was born.

Yeah, I think Garrison got it wrong ... lots of shots in the dark from him, but little substance.

[Excited Penguin]

What do you mean by external, then ? External to what, the neurons ?

External to my own consciousness.  Try an example.  I have a lawnmower in my garden shed.  If there is no external world, then the lawnmower will cease to exist when my consciousness ceases to exist.  If there is an external world, the lawnmower will still be there when my consciousness isn't.  I have no 'reasonable belief' that the former situation is the correct one, so I therefore believe - without proof - that there exists an external world apart from my consciousness.

To put it another (and perhaps more personal) way, the AF member I know as 'Excited Penguin' exists whether I live another 50 years or I die in the next ten seconds.  If there were no external world, you would cease to exist when I do.

Boru

Do you agree that consciousness is a physical process arising in the brain ? If so, why do you think it possible that the world's existence may be predicated on your experience of it ? All you have described is this hypothetical connection between awareness and reality that you think may or may not be there, but you haven't explained it. 

My own position on the matter is that this is an unknowable and meaningless proposition to consider.

[Thumpalumpacus]

What do you mean by external, then ? External to what, the neurons ?

External to my own consciousness.  Try an example.  I have a lawnmower in my garden shed.  If there is no external world, then the lawnmower will cease to exist when my consciousness ceases to exist.  If there is an external world, the lawnmower will still be there when my consciousness isn't.  I have no 'reasonable belief' that the former situation is the correct one, so I therefore believe - without proof - that there exists an external world apart from my consciousness.

To put it another (and perhaps more personal) way, the AF member I know as 'Excited Penguin' exists whether I live another 50 years or I die in the next ten seconds.  If there were no external world, you would cease to exist when I do.

Boru

Do solipsists suffer skidmarks?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Do you agree that consciousness is a physical process arising in the brain ?

Yes, of course.

If so, why do you think it possible that the world's existence may be predicated on your experience of it ?

I think you've misunderstood me. I do NOT think it is possible that the world's existence is predicated on my experience of it.

All you have described is this hypothetical connection between awareness and reality that you think may or may not be there, but you haven't explained it.

OK, now I'm SURE you've misunderstood me. I don't in any wise 'think it may or may not be there'. I am of the belief that reality exists whether I'm aware it or not. What I cannot do is prove that this is the case (which is the whole point of this thread).

My own position on the matter is that this is either an unknowable or meaningless proposition to begin with.

I'm not sure it is useful to describe questions of reality, existence, or consciousness as 'meaningless', so it's fortunate for me that I wasn't proposing anything at all. I do, however, agree that whether external reality exists is unknowable. More to the point, it is also unprovable, which - again - is germane to the thread.

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

External to my own consciousness.  Try an example.  I have a lawnmower in my garden shed.  If there is no external world, then the lawnmower will cease to exist when my consciousness ceases to exist.  If there is an external world, the lawnmower will still be there when my consciousness isn't.  I have no 'reasonable belief' that the former situation is the correct one, so I therefore believe - without proof - that there exists an external world apart from my consciousness.

To put it another (and perhaps more personal) way, the AF member I know as 'Excited Penguin' exists whether I live another 50 years or I die in the next ten seconds.  If there were no external world, you would cease to exist when I do.

Boru

Do solipsists suffer skidmarks?

That'd be up to individual solipsist, I think.

Boru

[Qwraith]

The difference between believing in alien life and say unicorns or fairies is that aliens have a basis in reality, in the natural world. If we do away with the possibility of god creating us, then as far as I can tell life must have arisen by natural means at least once. Given the shear immensity of the universe and the idea that life can originate from non-life via naturalistic means, intelligence elsewhere in the universe is a near certainty, at least from my perspective. It's not a proof, no, but it has more basis than things which don't rely on the natural world. The same can be said of the multi-verse theory and perhaps even time travel.

[Excited Penguin]

Do you agree that consciousness is a physical process arising in the brain ?

Yes, of course.

If so, why do you think it possible that the world's existence may be predicated on your experience of it ?

I think you've misunderstood me.  I do NOT think it is possible that the world's existence is predicated on my experience of it. 

All you have described is this hypothetical connection between awareness and reality that you think may or may not be there, but you haven't explained it. 

OK, now I'm SURE you've misunderstood me.  I don't in any wise 'think it may or may not be there'.  I am of the belief that reality exists whether I'm aware it or not.  What I cannot do is prove that this is the case (which is the whole point of this thread).

My own position on the matter is that this is either an unknowable or meaningless proposition to begin with. 

I'm not sure it is useful to describe questions of reality, existence, or consciousness as 'meaningless', so it's fortunate for me that I wasn't proposing anything at all.  I do, however, agree that whether external reality exists is unknowable.  More to the point, it is also unprovable, which - again - is germane to the thread.

Boru

I think trying to assign such properties as knowable and provable to existence itself is an exercise in futility. Experience of the world is there. The world itself is there, in some sense, no matter what may turn out to be the case. Therefore, I still think this questioning of or indeed belief in reality is simply meaningless and useless at best.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yes, of course.


I think you've misunderstood me.  I do NOT think it is possible that the world's existence is predicated on my experience of it. 


OK, now I'm SURE you've misunderstood me.  I don't in any wise 'think it may or may not be there'.  I am of the belief that reality exists whether I'm aware it or not.  What I cannot do is prove that this is the case (which is the whole point of this thread).


I'm not sure it is useful to describe questions of reality, existence, or consciousness as 'meaningless', so it's fortunate for me that I wasn't proposing anything at all.  I do, however, agree that whether external reality exists is unknowable.  More to the point, it is also unprovable, which - again - is germane to the thread.

Boru

I think trying to assign such properties as knowable and provable to existence itself is an exercise in futility. Experience of the world is there. The world itself is there, in some sense, no matter what may turn out to be the case. Therefore, I still think this questioning of or indeed belief in reality is simply meaningless and useless at best.

I don't understand your contradiction. If the assigning the property 'knowable' to existence is futile, then how can 'experience of the world be there'?

Again, you're not getting what I'm saying. Yes, the world is there, however we take the meaning of 'there' - it is either there outside and irrespective of my consciousness, or it is 'there' only within my consciousness. I opt - without proof - for the former.

Please understand that I'm not trying to demonstrate that one view or another is correct, but simply answering the question posed in the thread title.

Boru

[rado84]

I believe in aliens. It's only a matter of time their existence to be proven and I wish to be alive the day it happens - the faces of all the religious idiots who claim there are no aliens will be priceless to see at that moment.
All the more the Stupidity book (a.k.a bible) is full of evidence of their existence.