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Will the Islamists kill Islam?
#11
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
No, but violent Islamists can precipitate the same kind of reformation that muzzled the political power of Christianity, and hopefully will. I only wish I could be confident that the bloody part will be more brief than it was for Christianity.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#12
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
Quote:Public feeling in the ME could (should?) turn against what Daesh seeks as a direct reaction to it's barbarism.

Sunni and Shi'ite were blasting the ever-loving shit out of each other long before ISIS came along.  Don't worry, as soon as the immediate crisis is over they'll get back to it.


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#13
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
I suspect the process will be quicker due to improved communications. It's no coincidence that Protestantism kicked off shortly after the development of printing, That Atheism has moved out of the shadows with the arrival of the telephone , television and now the Internet. Bloggers in Islamic communities are being heard now and not lost without trace as was the case previously, as such the Imams simply can't have it their own way without contradiction.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#14
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
The means of control have -also- become more sophisticated in that time.  We say, "the internet the internet the internet"...but the thing about mass comms is that they -also- allow the imams to present their message. "The internet" is where all of these apologist assholes that we get on the boards come from...before that, they just had their silly fucking bibles.

Besides, we incorrectly assume that because atheism "rose" after mass comms. that one has somthing to do with the other. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. I say we're wrong. There have always been non-believers and people who fell away from the faith (and it wouldn;t surprise me in the least to find that the relative numbers of those people has always been about what it is). We say nothing today, in regards to atheism or religion, that a school of hindu thought hadn't proclaimed thousands of years ago. The muslim world is already full of kafir, and it always has been. Those guys aren't in charge, so long as the imams are..they never will be.

What ended the stranglehold of religion in europe wasn't something so lofty as the printed word. It was the religious authorities attempts to slaughter each other until they were all so collectively weakened that they no longer possessed the power to oppress. As it turned out, the rank and file wasn't as committed as they were to whatever it was those authorities thought was so important, surprise surprise. In the absence of their control, they did what they would have done...in the absence of that control.

Now, there are reams and reams of ideas as to why a people who don't actually believe what their authorities believe would go along with it anyway, and it might be something as simple as a preference for the devil you know. Sure, maybe if you were in charge, things would be diffeent, but do you want to be in charge, do you think that you could reforge the world anew to it;s betterment? It sounds depressing, but it's an effective risk aversion strategy, and that sort of thing is awfully compelling to the hopped up chimps we are. So maybe, for example, you don't hate isreal, but going along will help you get along. Maybe, you don't hate jews...but somebody has to operate those ovens..and if it isn't you..you might end up -in- the ovens.

In my views, those sunni and shia blasting the shit out of each other probably -is- the most effective way to break the stranglehold of religion in the general..but it won't be because the people themselves finally get fed up with it, they're just won't be enough oppressors left to oppress. One day, they'll end up like the christians we have today. Relatively civil, but still glorifying their crusaders and a bygone glory day as though it were anything other than a river of blood. A religion full of people who say and believe terrible shit...again, like our relatively civil chrstans..but know better than to act on it, because hey, look at what happened to those other guys that did.
 “I can’t even go to a goddamn potluck without having to thank some space fairy for the broccoli casserole!” -Trae Crowder


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#15
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
Kill Islam ?

We can only hope.



(really, no one had posted that yet? Gitouttahere!)
If any email controversy impacted the election, it wasn't Russian hacking of the DNC and  John Podesta's email, it was Hillary Clinton's decision to have her own email server and the subsequent FBI investigation which raised all the same  questions  Hillary Clinton has justifiably faced for decades about her trustworthiness and honesty.


















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#16
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
There's a growing secular/non religious movement growing across the Middle East and other predominantly Muslim areas of the world. While they are oppressed and must stay underground, I can see the movement growing stronger as people in the region get tired of the antics of the extremists.

Will it kill Islam? No.

But I think the non religious movement will gain from the situation.
There is nothing better in life than lying next to the one you love.

And they don't know that you love them.

Or that you're in their house again.


Angel

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#17
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
An interesting queston to ask about this, -as- islamists are further and further marginalized...will they become even more radicalized than they are now?  That's generally what happens when overal cultural trends gentrify religion and disenfranchise zealots.  Kind of disturbing, considering the point they're starting at.

Will future islamists make current islamists seem downright friendly and secular by comparison?
 “I can’t even go to a goddamn potluck without having to thank some space fairy for the broccoli casserole!” -Trae Crowder


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#18
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
They've had thousands of years to do so. I think Islam will survive a bit longer. I do hope for some form of large-scale change, though. Christianity got its ass in shape a while ago. It's Islam's turn, now.
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#19
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
(4th November 2016, 10:40)Mister Agenda Wrote: No, but violent Islamists can precipitate the same kind of reformation that muzzled the political power of Christianity, and hopefully will. I only wish I could be confident that the bloody part will be more brief than it was for Christianity.

The secret is always the same. Relative stability and chances at a desirable future for the youngsters. If whole generations grow up without any realistic chance for a life and a livelihood, the outcome is as expected. If you got nothing to lose, you're more likely to put your own life on the line.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
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#20
RE: Will the Islamists kill Islam?
(7th November 2016, 15:41)abaris Wrote:
(4th November 2016, 10:40)Mister Agenda Wrote: No, but violent Islamists can precipitate the same kind of reformation that muzzled the political power of Christianity, and hopefully will. I only wish I could be confident that the bloody part will be more brief than it was for Christianity.

The secret is always the same. Relative stability and chances at a desirable future for the youngsters. If whole generations grow up without any realistic chance for a life and a livelihood, the outcome is as expected. If you got nothing to lose, you're more likely to put your own life on the line.

You make an astounding leap over the fact that the muslim religion invites and cultivates the environment for no realistic chance for a peaceful and happy life for everyone. Simply having little, being poor, is not the single metric by which violence occurs not by a long shot and is very shortsighted, dangerous even to mitigate your ideals with such loose and foolhardy comments.  Its what muslims are taught and the forced means by which those teachings are enforced that cause such utter violence on a global scale. And just with older religions that walked the globe so long ago handing out violence on scale with islam, they were all beaten into submission and today are mostly benign and operate in courtrooms rather than the streets forcing those into subjugation. Islam will be beaten into submission, eventually, I just wish we could be here to see it with our own eyes.
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